Why believe Revelation or Last Days?

by Seeker 38 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Those of us who used to be JWs, I have a question for you: Why would any of us think Revelation has anything to say about the 21st century, or that we are in the Last Days period?

    When we left the JWs, we did so because of their false teachings. We saw through their faulty reasoning about why we are in the last days. We saw through their absurd arguments about how Revelation is being fulfilled in our day.

    So why am I seeing threads and comments here about how the New World Order is a fulfillment of Revelation, or that the mark of the beast will soon be here? Didn't we learn anything upon our exit from the WTS? Why is it so hard to see through such nonsense when we now can clearly see through the nonsense the WTS taught?

    Revelation has no application to the 21st century any more than it applied to the 16th century, or the 5th, or to one day the 29th century.

    Government of the world may one day (not soon) unite, and if so that will overall be a good thing (with some very bad side effects), but it will have nothing to do with what someone in the first century wrote. We are also not living in the last days.

    If anyone disagrees, the burden of proof is on them for making absurd claims. Keep in mind, people have been applying Revelation to events in every century since the first. They have all been wrong.

    C'mon, people. If we can tear down the WTS arguments, the same methods can be used to destroy all fundamentalist thought. We have our brains. Let's use them.

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    A little devotional that I wrote recently:
    Today our Lord has risen! It seems like a dream come true. Was it really only Friday that we left the foot of the cross that held his lifeless body? We understood so little. We never expected him to die even as he told us that it would happen. He is the messiah! He cannot die! He is setting up his kingdom! Oh Father, all of that ended that day.

    (NIV Mark 15:34) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
    (NIV Luke 23:46-47 46) Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, "Surely this was a righteous man."

    Even the Roman centurion expressed regret over the death of our beloved Rabbi. We cowered and trembled through that cold, dark night and even into two more days and one more night. Huddled in our hiding place we feared the Jews, now that the Son of man was entombed and even guarded. The Jews told them we would try to steal the body. Can you imagine that? How could we ever accomplish the rolling away of the huge stone covering the entrance, much less try to steal the body and for what purpose?
    Then this day arrived and Mary Magdalen returned from the tomb with the unbelievable news! He is risen! Our Lord is risen! Our Lord and our God has breathed the Holy Spirit on us. We proclaim the gospel to all who will listen. We understand now and we will do His will. To Yahashua be the glory forever and ever, amen.
    Here we are almost two millennia and thousands of miles from that blessed event. Our Lord is even more alive to us though we cannot see Him with our eyes of flesh. We see Him in our hearts and in the hearts of our beloved brethern. We see Him in worship and wherever we gather in His name. May our Lord again enter into time from eternity. May we see you in full glory on that moment that we rise to meet you!

    (NIV 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    Until that glorious day may we continue to evangelize our fellow man. May we each strive to faithfully carry out the Grand Commision:

    (NIV Matthew 28:18-20) Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

    Now to the pont:
    NIV Romans 8:1-9
    1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
    2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
    4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
    5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
    6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
    7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

    So Seeker,
    You sound like a kid whistling his way through a graveyard, muttering to himself, "I don't believe in spooks".
    Take your pick on the humongous disasters that we are ont he edge of. Do I have to name them for you? It took a miracle to bring Israel back to Palestine in '48. It's only through the grace of God that we did not start shooting missles at each other in '62, '67 and '73. God really stuck the false prophets on that last one, eh?

    Now we have the environment, viral warfare and a million man army that could assemble and march to the border of Israel in about sixty days. When that happens, are we gonna nuke 'em or stand by and let 'em go to it? Israel has about fifty warheads that could kill a lot of Arabs and Chinese or Russians or all three.

    That Great Trib is gonna' be a rough time for those who are left behind.....
    NIV Matthew 24:36-42
    36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
    38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
    39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
    40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
    41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
    42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

    ASV Revelation 19:13-17
    13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
    15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
    16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;

    NIV Matthew 13:37-42
    37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
    38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
    39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
    40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
    41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
    42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    NIV Mark 13:19-27
    19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again.
    20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
    21 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ !' or, `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
    22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
    23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
    24 "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
    25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
    26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    Yep, I hope you enjoy the fireworks!
    Cheers,
    Rex

  • TR
    TR

    Seeker,

    It's amazing how many different writers there are espousing this belief. There are and were numerous specials on tv about "the end". Imagine how many "end times" videos we'd have, if videos and tv's were available since the first century.

    TR

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
    —Edmund Burke

  • Anchor
    Anchor

    The Funny-mentalist above doesn't seem to know the centuries-long academic discussions about the book of Revelation and its very bad Greek, as to whether it should have squeaked into the Canon.

    Let's not tell him about Martin Luther's view of Revelation. Shhhhhhh.

    Ooops! Forgot. ML was one of those religious types 'who knew just a little to get into trouble and not enough to get out.' Everybody is wrong but Rex, whose bloodthirsty "Christian" spirit peeks through now and then.

    Anchor

  • larc
    larc

    Hey guys,

    I agree with my buddy Rex. The end is very, very close. It has been close for 2000 years now, and my family for many generations have felt a sense of urgency. That is why most of them died young from hear attacks. I myself became stirred with emotion and the true sense of urgency when by good buddy Chuck Russell told me that this was really, really, I mean really close now. I have been pioneering ever since. For the last 122 years I have known the true blessing of full time service and poverty. Lately it has been tough to preach at the home here, where I sit in my wheel chair and droll all over the magazines.

  • kes152
    kes152

    Hello Seeker,

    I know I may get REALLY shot down for saying this, but I have to say it:

    The book of Revelation, ALL OF IT was not written for the world, but written for those who are 'anointed' and thus belong to the Anointed Jesus. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ (both in the flesh and in the spirit) a revelation of what must "shortly take place," and a revelation of what has taken place. All of this both in "The Gospel according to John" and "Revelation" together make up "THE REVELATION of Jesus Christ."

    Jesus had this 'disclosure' written to the 'anointed' and only the 'anointed' because the spirit that lives in the hearts of those 'anointed' would "teach it to them." When I say 'anointed' I am NOT in ANY WAY refering only to the 144,000. The ANOINTED make up both the 144,000 "firstfruits" AND A GREAT MULTITUDE" of people from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue. All of these who recieve the free gift of holy spirit are "taught" one-on-one BY that 'spirit.' That spirit explains to them what the 'real' meaning is of Revelation in the order according to what the Lord chooses to reveal to them. The reason for this is because the ones who are being attacked in the book of Revelation are the 'anointed.' The 'beasts' are not after the world, but the 'anointed.' In its quest for seeking and destroying the 'anointed' it has gathered much of the world to prevent them from recieving holy spirit and thus an 'anointing' by it.

    (This right here should TELL YOU the 'beasts' are NOT Governments. The Governments are NOT looking for the 'anointed' nor do they even care.)

    All those of the 'anointed' who recieve this 'message' and heed the 'warnings' are blessed and happy Revelation 1:3. They will not be ensnared and will be able to warn their brothers and everyone else who is in danger.

    Peace to you,
    Aaron

  • philo
    philo

    Hey Seeker,

    I'm thinking now that the JW bible needs another revision, particularly in the 'signs of the times' translations.

    "Wars and reports of wars" was always too vague and easily applied to stir the imagination: the phrase should be replaced by "Malls and reports of malls". That would cover the spread of capitalism and media.

    "Nation will rise against nation" isn't very descriptive of the world's struggles as the bigger problems are coming from within nations, civil wars, coups, the muscle of the multinational companies, and technological change: it should read, "Information will rise against information". They could also apply it to the nasty Internet if they wanted.

    "Food shortages" the world is probably better fed than it ever has been through history, witness the world-wide population explosion: it should be changed to "Spiritual food shortages".

    "Earthquakes in one place after another": well they are hardly going to happen all in ONE place, are they? They have proceeded in cycles through the ages, and we are now living in a fairly quiet period: change 'earthquakes' to 'tremors', which can be applied across the board.

    And so on…

    Shoot! The GB leave all the thinking to us apostates!

    philo

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Kes,

    You said:

    I know I may get REALLY shot down for saying this, but I have to say it:

    (Big snip.)

    Wowsers! If that "explanation" didn't clear it all up what will?

    Norm.

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Seeker,

    I seem to remember that the first time that I smoked pot I felt that I could write a book similar to Revelation.

    Suely, this was a crazy chappie on Patmos Island who wrote this. It certainly wasn't written by the John of the gospels, the Greek is too dis-similar.

    And some people think that I should change my life because of a book like this? Life of Brian at best!

    Englishman.

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Seeker: Carl Olaf Jonnson's book Sign of the Last Days - When? is very impressive in showing that the so-called "signs" in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 were not signs, but rather what Jesus Christ said would not be signs, but simply part of what humans experience. He said that when we see wars, food shortages, disease, etc. not to be afraid, for the end is not yet. At the end of Matt 24, Jesus went on to say what would be the event of his 2nd coming or Presense ... it would be a swift and unexpected event, but one that all would understand. In otherwords, there are no 'Last Days' as such, but a warning against false prophets.

    I agree with you that there is no way to point to, identify, and mark something called the 'Last Days' in any century. Yet, millions of Christians from various denominations have pointed to their particular century as the last generation, all seeing the fulfillment of 'signs' in their day. It is simply a common error that many, but not all, make. Unfortunately, groups like the JWs, Adventists, and several others have made millenialism into a religion, and eventually a prophet (profit) making business. Some of the latest prophets on the seen are people like Jack Van Impe who see every event on the world stage as fulfilling some aspect of prophecy. And, like the JWs, they seel you their books, tapes, and videos ... and the real Prophets are found in projecting growth in profits.

    This is not to say that Jesus Christ will not return someday. I think he will. But the question is when and what he will do and how it will affect those alive at that time. Until then, I believe that the best course for Christians is to simply live a Christian life, stay out of the Prophet business, and leave the rest to God.

    Amazing

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