a great crowd and rev 21

by IP_SEC 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The metaphor of God's "tent", incidentally, harkens back to Canaanite mythology, which refers to the creator god El's paradisical dwelling as inside a tent at Mount Hermon. In the Baal Epic, the craftsman god Kothar went to visit El: "Then he heads toward El at the springs of the Double-Rivers, amidst the channels of the Double-Deeps. He comes to the mountain of El and enters the tent of the King, the Father of Years" (KTU 1.2 III 4-5). Similarly, in another myth El's mountain palace is said to lie "at the springs of the Two Rivers, at the meeting place of the Double-Deeps (mbk nhrm b'dt thmtm, KTU 1.100 R 1-4). The same concept is found in Psalm 42:

    "I am on my way to the wonderful Tent, to the House of God , among cries of joy and praise and an exultant throng. Why so downcast, my soul, why do you sigh within me? Put your hope in God, I shall praise him yet, my savior, my God. When my soul is downcast within me, I think of you; from the land of Jordan and in Hermon, in Mount Misar deep is calling to deep as your cataracts roar." (Psalm 42:4-7)

    Mount Misar refers to a hill in the Hermon range near the source of the Jordan, and "deep calling to deep" is based in the Canaanite notion that the cosmic mountain where El makes his abode joins the heavenly "Deep" (cf. Genesis 1:6) with the subterranean "deep" contained within the mountain (cf. Job 28:9-11, 38:16-17). In the OT, we also read how Yahweh "builds his palace on the waters above" and "sits enthroned on the Flood" (Psalm 29:10; 104:2-3), and Ezekiel 28:2 has the Phoenician king declare: "I am El ('l), in the dwelling of the gods ('lhym); I dwell in the midst of the seas (ymym)," a locale linked in v. 13-14 with "Eden", "the garden of God", and "the holy mountain of the gods". El's mountain dwelling is also alluded to in Isaiah 14:13 which refers to the "stars of El" in connection with the "mount of assembly (hr mw'd), and in both Canaanite mythology and in the OT, El (or Yahweh in the OT) presides over the divine assembly at the mountainous dwelling (cf. KTU 1.15 II 2-7, 1.16 V 19-28; cf. Psalm 82:1, 89:6-9). (The Greek concept of the divine assembly at Mount Olympus is related to these West Semitic concepts). The deities of the divine council were also depicted as tent-dwellers (cf. KTU 1.15 III 17-19), and the tabernacle interestingly is called the "tent of assembly" ('whl mw'd) in Exodus 33:7-11, Numbers 11:16-29, 12:4-10, and the divine assembly in KTU 1.2 I 13-44 is similarly called the phr m'd "appointed council". The seventy elders that Moses would assemble at the tent, moreover, reflects the number of gods in the divine assembly (KTU 1.4 VI 46; Numbers 11:24, cf. Deuteronomy 32:8, Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on the "seventy angels"). There are many other similarities between the tabernacle and El's tent dwelling. Both were desgined by an appointed craftsman "skilled in every craft" (cf. KTU 1.3 VI 22-23, 1.4 I 24-25; Exodus 31:2, 35:30), both were divided into chambers, and both have wodden frames called qrs (Hebrew qeresh, Ugaritic qarshu) on which the tent fabric was placed.

    The tent shrine at Shiloh was not simply a representation of El's abode; it was conceived as Yahweh's actual place of dwelling on earth. Thus, in 1 Samuel 7:6 Yahweh says that "I have not dwelt in a temple ... rather I have gone about in a tent ('whl) and in a tabernacle (mskn)". Numbers 11:25 states that "Yahweh came down in a pillar of cloud" to the tabernacle, and "stood at the entrance of the Tent" (12:5). And Psalm 78:60 says that "he abandoned his tent in Shiloh, the tent where he dwelt (skn) among men". The language and metaphors used in Revelation appear to draw on OT concepts of God's dwelling among men in a tent and God dwelling in a paradisical abode on his holy mountain. Both concepts were combined in the OT traditions about Mount Zion, which placed the mythological cosmic mountain in Jerusalem. Note especially the eschatological material in Ezekiel 36-37, which refer to a future restoration of God's presence in Jerusalem, and Ezekiel 37:27 is alluded to in Revelation 21:3.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    As Bebu was saying - eat the animal that divides the hoof - be as the one who stands in two places at the one time

  • heathen
    heathen

    It's my belief that the bible is saying that the kingdom of the heavens jesus spoke about and people are praying for , thy kingdom come and will take place , is actually the city of new jerusalem that descends to earth with christ . The city itself is enormous , according to the WTBTS it's measurements are something like 1350 square miles with it's top around 360 miles into outer space from the earth .Only pure christians are allowed in as jesus talked plenty of the marriage feast the ten virgins and not everybody saying lord lord shall be let in . The WTBTS teaches that they are the city which is complete joke , them and their spiritual paradise doctrine . Jesus said also every eye shall see him arrive with the kindom in power and glory . So to me the city itself would be plenty for every eye to see . The apostle Paul also spoke of all the people not allowed enterance . There are different ways to enter the city , the saints which are dead at the time are resurrected and enter through the pearl gates with the names of the 12 tribes written on 12 gates . The great crowd as depicted in revelation 7 enter through the court yard . The great crowd from that point on never die and are restored to physical perfection . Thanks for listening ...................

  • Flash
    Flash

    IP_SEC

    Anyone have an idea on how to reconcile the obvious heavenly hope of chapter 7 and 19 with the indication of an earthly hope at chapter 21?

    Sorry IP. The doctrine of the Two Hopes is something I believe the WTS has right.

  • Little Bo Peep
    Little Bo Peep

    Just read your post, so thought some of my research could help. I hadn't really "read" the Bible in all of my 58 years with the WT, until the last two years. When I started reading it for what is says, instead of what the WT says it "says", I was very surprised. Here are some of the scriptures I found that had similar expressions as those of Rev 21:1-4, indicating to me these things had already started to be fulfilled. Keep in mind too, there is great controversy as to when the book of Revelation was written, before or after 70ce. The scriptures are from the NWT. 2 Cor 6:16 "we are a temple". The footnote says divine habitation or dwelling. By the way, my "8 translation" Bible, uses "tent", "temple", "dwell", "live", and "home", for the word "tent". 1 Cor 15:54-56 talks about deaths sting being "swallowed up forever". He was talking to those with a "heavenly hope". Also, the Law was being taken away by Jesus' sacrifice, ending death. 2 Pet 1:4 talks about becoming "sharers in divine nature". Luke 4:18-21 Jesus quoted Isaiah, saying he fulfulled that scripture. Lu 7:22 shows it was being done then, at that time. Col 1:13 says they had been "transferred" into "the kingdom of the Son of his love". 1 Pet 2:9,10 says they "were once not a people, but are now God's people". 2 Tim 1:10 says Jesus "has abolished death". The footnote says, literally, "having made ineffective". 2 Cor 5:17 says those in union with Christ are a "new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence."

    I'd encourage you to read the context also. Hope these scriptures help in adding more to the possible meaning to Rev 21. I think there are things we will never really know for sure, and we can't be dogmatic about anything that isn't spelled out in "black and white".

  • upside/down
    upside/down
    they did have tears and sorrow and death while on earth so God will remove that when they get to heaven.

    Didn't WAR break out in heaven?

    Didn't a THIRD of the "stars" fall?

    Heaven sounds much like Earth... or should I say the spirit realm sounds much like the physical realm?

    Let's see disobedience... rebellion... war.... two opposing (maybe more) sides...charismatic leaders on each side....powerful leaders on each side...all vying for EVERYONES unconditional allegiance.... WINNER TAKE ALL....

    yup sounds JUST like here.

    u/d (of the but what the hell do I know class)

  • lilybird
    lilybird

    upside/down... I totally agree with you....no wonder ppl on earth can't get along... they have the same power and ego struggles in heaven as they do on earth..... and they don't even have financial worries!!!!!

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Yeah... the Dubs love to use the whole "universal trial" illustration...

    So why the hell doesn't "the lord" have a real gawdam TRIAL... with a big ass giant screen TV for all to see...have EVERY person and spirit creature that has ever existed... present. And let the games begin...

    Everyone gets to hear EACH sides point and hear (dare I say it?) the "witnesses" and then have a jury vote. And settle the matter once and for all...no smoke and mirrors (religion).

    I'm so sick of the one-sided version we've been force fed.

    How come mean old "Devil the Satan" never chimes in or pipes up? I've never heard "his" side of the "issue"...for that matter Jehovah's "counsel" (his Dubs) need to be fired and some new COMPETENT counsel brought in.

    u/d (of the courts in session class)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    As above, so below...

  • gumby
    gumby

    IP......so your hangup is with the words...."tent" and "mankind". Since these are earthly terms, you feel it could not apply in a heavenly sense. If your going to apply this rule, then you must apply this rule when it speaks of heavenly beings but using earthy terms. The 144,000 are all "men". These men are virgins. In chapter 7 angels are "standing", "holding". In verse 2 of chapter 7 angels have vocal cords like humans to speak. Do angels have human voices? God sits on a throne in heaven. Does god really sit on a literal throne ? Does god even sit period? Do angels really play trumpets in heaven......or must that mean an earthly event since heaven really has no musical instuments?

    My point is.....if you look at all the earthy terms applied to heavenly life, you'll see the same is done with regards to chapter 21.

    Gumby

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