Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake

    If your wife will not read certain books, perhaps she will read the writings of two former Watchtower Presidents?

    A Visible Earthly Organisation

    I have a copy of part of an excellent 1946 Watchtower Article written by Fred Franz, (Watchtower Society President from 1977 until his death in 1992). From what I have seen, I could give my full support to the content of that Watchtower article. The article is a bold and forthright response to ?hierarchical organizations? who say:

    1. ?the Bible cannot be left for each reader to interpret himself?
    2. ?we still need the visible organisation of the faithful to act as a ?living magisterium? or teaching power
    3. the Bible is a divisive force to those who take it, and it alone, as adequate.

    Through the Watchtower, Fred Franz explained why all of these three claims were not true. He wrote:

    Watchtower 1946 Nov 1 page 330, Article ?Let God Prove to be True?

    ?The divisive force among the Catholic and Protestant religionists of Christendom is the religious traditions which they follow. The truth of the Bible is a unifying power. After Christ Jesus prayed: ?Sanctify them through thy Word: thy Word is truth,? he immediately prayed that all his believers, those then following him and those yet due to believe, should be united in one, just as he and His heavenly Father are one (John 17:17-23)?

    He then wrote

    ?How is disunity over each one?s individual interpretation of the Holy Scriptures now overcome or avoided? Is it because they are united around a visible human organization or around a visible human leader? The answer is No. It is because they recognize Jehovah God and Christ Jesus as The Higher Powers to whom every Christian soul must be subject for conscience? sake (Romans 13:1)

    ? Hence Jehovah?s Witnesses do not claim to be what the religious Hierarchy claims their religious organization to be, namely, the one holding the magisterium or teaching office and hence ?the Divinely appointed Custodian and Interpreter of the Bible.?

    Another part of the article says:

    ?The written Word of God does not therefore need the addition of traditions which are the private interpretations of man and of religious organisations. It is not on our own authority that we say the Bible is sufficient without such. The inspired Apostle, Paul, writes his faithful and fellow worker Timothy to that effect saying: ?from thy infancy thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Jesus Christ. All Scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.? (2 Tim 3:15-17)

    Had the oral traditions of religious men been necessary to complement the Canon of the Bible, Paul would not have said that the inspired Holy Scriptures were profitable to the point of making the men of God perfect in faith and devotion to God. It would have been inadequate and would have left the man of God unperfected?(quotes 2 Tim

    Prompted by that article, on the question of a visible earthly organisation appointed by God in the last days, I have searched for Scriptural basis for such a role. There was such an enormous amount of Scriptural prophecy about other important people or events (eg the Messiah) I would expect to see a lot of similar prophecy about any visible earthly organisation appointed for such an important role in the very last days. Is there clear Scriptural evidence for such an organization?

    I then looked further back, to the founder, CT Russell, to see how he saw ?the truth.? It seems he found it necessary to reject the world?s main religions, and many of the reasons he gave are similar to those I have listed above when I described the characteristics of the Catholic Church of my childhood. Here are some of his words about the first Christians and why it was necessary to revert back to those ways of worship:

    Watchtower 1881 by the President C T Russell

    ?..their organization was of Spirit; their law for the government of each was love, and all as a whole were put under obedience to ?the law of the Spirit? as it was expressed in the life, actions and words of their Lord??

    ?..it is clearly seen that these present day churches?interpret and enforce the ?traditions of the elders? which ?make void the Word of God.? These take the place of the true Head of the Church ? Jesus and the true teacher and guide to all truth, the Holy Spirit. Hear the prophet Isaiah express it (chap )?

    ?This brings us to our second preposition, viz that all Christians should be joined to this organisation? But says one; Must I not join some organisation on earth, assent to some creed and have my name written on earth? No. Remember that Jesus is your pattern and teacher, and neither in his words or acts will you find any authority for binding yourselves with creeds or traditions of the elders, which all tend to make the word of God of none effect (Mark 7:13) and bring you under a bondage that will hinder your growth in grace and knowledge, and against which Paul warned you to ?stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made you free, and be not entangled with the yoke of bondage (Gal 5:1}?

    Watchtower 1882 April, Questions & Answers

    ?We are strictly unsectarian?(read 1 Cor 3:1-4)?we have no creed (fence) to bind us together or keep others out of our company. The Bible is our only Standard, and its teachings our only creed?We are in fellowship with all Christians in whom we can recognise the Spirit of Christ, and especially with those who recognise the Bible as the only Standard. We do not require therefore that all should see just as we do in order to be called Christians, realising that growth and knowledge is a gradual process; nor do we see reason to expect that any but the Watchmen of Zion will ?see eye to eye (Isa 52:8) until that which is perfect is come..(1 Cor ).?

    ?If all Christians were to thus free themselves from prescribed creeds, and study the Word of God without denominational bias, truth and knowledge and real Christian fellowship and unity would result. The Spirit of the Head would pervade the unfettered members of the Body and sectarian pride would vanish.?

    Watchtower 1884 February

    ?We belong to no earthly organization?we adhere only to that heavenly organization ?whose names are written in heaven? (Heb Luke )?

    ?What think you?...suppose?all man made creeds and forms ?and names were laid aside, or that all Christians met in the One name of Christ, and in earnest simplicity, studied HIS words under the direction of God?s Spirit and the explanations furnished in the Apostles? writings, would there be long and serious differences, even of opinion?... And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us; we acknowledge none other name than ?the only name given under heaven and among men? ? Jesus Christ. We call ourselves simply CHRISTIANS and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation stone of our building mentioned by Paul: ?that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures?; and those for whom this is not broad enough have no right to the name Christian.?

    WT 1895 15 September article ?How to Conduct Group Meetings?

    ?Beware of ?organisation?. It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others? consciences and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God?s word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day?.

  • The Leological One
    The Leological One

    Thanks to all who've replied to the thread and also for those last couple of good-sized, info-filled posts by Jaffacake and Adelmaal as well as to MAHABA and Narkissos for sharing their views~!

    Leonard

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    I would suggest that instead of bombarding her with all sorts of scriptures and explanations, you might want to point out that some Christian groups do not believe that anyone goes to heaven (Christadelphians, Church of God Abrahamic Faith).

    You might also want point out to her the scripture by the apostle John at 1 John 3:2: "Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is."

    So even the aged apostle John under inspiration did not know everything. I would suggest to lovingly assure her that she not overly concern herself about the 144,000, who they might be, what she might be, etc. and just try to please God to the best of her ability, as John did.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Another interesting thread from an OT perspective:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85470/1.ashx

    What seems to be missing thus far is a comprehensive study of the role ascribed to the "earth" in Jewish and early Christian (e.g. millenarist) apocalyptics... It would be very helpful on this board. I haven't the tools at hand to start it now, but I suggest the idea in case somebody has.

  • adelmaal
    adelmaal
    I would suggest that instead of bombarding her with all sorts of scriptures and explanations, you might want to point out that some Christian groups do not believe that anyone goes to heaven (Christadelphians, Church of God Abrahamic Faith).

    Cygnus:

    While your approach certainly simplifies things for a JW, which is of great benefit to them I don't think it will work up front with one who still believes all their Bible truths. JWs complicate everything and IMHO the only way to reason with one initially is to show them Bible truths and reasonings that mess up their psycho babble. She will respect it coming from the Bible. She will not respect it coming from "other religions" who do not believe anyone is going to heaven. She thinks "other relions" are part of the Harlot/Babylon The Great and they are going to be destroyed. I don't think she will initially respect anything coming from that source. Just my .02.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    An interesting online PDF on the subject of "earthly hope" in Jewish millenarianism:

    http://www.unites.uqam.ca/religiologiques/20/Religiologiques20PDF/20(025-049)Ulfgard.pdf

  • The Leological One
    The Leological One

    Thanks again Cygnus, Adelmaal, and Narkissos! I just got home from a guitar competition (called Guitarmageddon, oddly enough~! ) ; unfortunately I didn't get to advance and got in a wreck on the way there today and so haven't had time to look at your responses more fully, but I really appreciate the responses and the info that's been looked up~! I can't wait 'til I have more time the next couple days to look over this thread again and some of the links provided~!

    Thanks again all,

    Leonard

  • heathen
    heathen

    If we knew where you lived we would have an apostafest in your town and celebrate the DFing . LOL Maybe cheer her up a little . It's always better to know you aren't alone .

    I think it depends on how you look at what the bible is saying . The kingdom of the heavens is simply the city of new jerusalem that lands on earth during the great tribulation . The WTBTS just does not get the picture at all , even tho they wrote about it in the climax book they went ahead and trashed it like it wasn't real, when it is . The 144k are chosen to be co rulers with christ for a thousand years but the great crowd is allowed to enter the city and worship thus they are portrayed as being in heaven . The 144k are also portrayed as being killed prior to the millenial reign for bearing witness to jesus but the great crowd will walk out of this world and into the kingdom without dying and partake in the marriage feast of the lamb . Now that's my story and I'm sticking to it .........

  • love11
    love11

    Rev. 7 will answer your questions on that.

    But I just wanted to say that when you are depressed about being dis-f no amount of scripture proving or disproving matters at that point. All you know is that you are hurting. What you miss most of all is humans. These are people that you thought loved you unconditionally and it's a cold slap of reality when you realize that these people want nothing to do with you.

    When I was disfellowshipped I felt so bad about myself. I believed God thought I was evil ( that is what they want you to believe) . I thought if I killed myself the worst that would happen is that I just wouldn't be resurrected into the paradise and I would just continue sleeping and not know the difference anyways. It was my lowest point.

    Ignoring someone is one thing, but having an entire community turn their back on you is another. It is hurtful, it is cruel, and bone chillingly unforgiving. I feel for your wife and I hope that she learns how to cope like all of us has had to. Someday maybe she'll realize that it's not her mistake that was so evil but the unrealistic expectations that are put on SOME of jw's.

    Also, something I haven't heard anyone mentioning on this forum yet (I'm new) is that they will not dis-f certain people for the same exact thing your wife has done. Elders and their families can get away with murder. Now if they really do follow the bible than how come there are different punishments for different people doing the same "crime". The fact that your wife is feeling this bad shows that she is repentant. Repentant means- feeling or expressing remorse for misdeeds. In their own law books they are only supposed to dis-f unrepentant people.

    Below is a note I posted today- it pretty much says my story, tell your wife about it and I hope that she can understand that she is not alone. Found in "Relationships" section under the subheading "help me prove to my bf that disfellowshipping happens".

    Not only is disfellowshipping Really happening but it's also found in the bible. The amish do it too but I'm not sure about the mormon's. I was disfellowshipped Dec. 1993 right after I spent the night at a guy's house. My mom called the elders and told them I did not come home all that night and two days later I was pulled in to a meeting with me, my mom, and two elders. That's when I was disfellowshipped. I tried afterwards to get reinstated. I went for months to the Kingdom Hall trying to prove that I wanted back in. At my "probationary hearing" (ha ha) I was told that they knew Jehovah forgave me but that I needed to prove myself to the rest of the congregation by showing up more at the hall. I just looked at them and I had an epiphany. I realized at that moment that they were just men in a religous club and that they were not governed by God because God knew that I was sorry. They will tell you that they only disfellowship unrepenting people but I know for a FACT that is not true. My sister and a few of my friends are disfellowshipped as well and they all have their own story. Example: Sister- disfellowshipped for saying to the elders and to other people in the congregation that dis-f me was wrong. Friend- dis-f for having sex with a man that later became her husband. Friend- dis-f for skipping school with the wrong guy who ended up raping her and she became pregnant from that rape. Friend- dis-f for threatening a man with a knife, she was later diagnosed with bi-polar disorder ( a mental illness that you cannot hold people accountable for). There is more to my story that I have left out. The man I spent the night with has been my husband going on 11 years. That night we did not have sex, we did not even see each other naked. We just stayed up all night talking and fell asleep in each others arms. The elders did not believe that I was telling the truth. But I was. God would know that. If the elders were govered by God, they would know that. As a side note to this story. I was in a car accident 2 weeks after I was married. I was close to dying and I asked my mom for the elders to pray over me. Keep in mind that I came from a strict jw family that did not talk to anyone that was not a jw. So these people at the Hall were my family and friends, they were everyone I hung out with since I was a baby. So I asked for the elders (uncles to me) to see me possibly for the last time. They told my mom that they would not come into the hospital for a disfellowshipped person and that I was dead already in God's eyes. My mom came to tell me the news. I was devastated. I had a punctured liver, broken tailbone, phemure bone, hip, 2 ribs, wrist, and I was pregnant at the time and lost that baby. My mom said to me " What do you expect when you marry a worldly boy".

    The cruelty of this organization will not be felt and will not be noticed until you disagree. They truely are wolves in sheeps clothing to the imperfect person. I strongely recommend to all who are thinking of being a jw or who are studing to be a jw to find love and a since of community within yourself and don't go looking for it here. To the mentally ill who are thinking of joining this organization it will offer you a sense of control and well being. Even if it is a false sense, it may work for you. However, expect to have to give up family or friends at some point in your life. They will tell you no that they encourage a good family life and that they only kick people out that are evil. THAT IS NOT TRUE. They will kick you out too for any imperfection.

    Life has not been the same for me. I have not spoken to my mother in 7 years because she told me "If you're not going to be in the paradise than I might as well get used to it now". She has not met my son who is 5 years old now. And the only friend I have is the ex-jw friend I told you about that slept with her boyfriend who later became her husband. The accident happened when I was 19 years old and I have since learned to walk again. I have 2 children and a wonderful husband that helped me when I was crippled and when no one else would love me. He was raised a catholic but doesn't do anything religous anymore besides spend time with his family. One last word of advice. Beware of anyone saying that they and only they are Gods chosen people. All things in this universe come from the smallest most minute thing- a cell.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Sorry to hear about the car accident . Guitarmaggedon , sounds pretty cool . What is that like free style stuff , write your own songs or how well you do copy stuff?

    I would rest assured that the WTBTS is f'd up from top to bottom . You never did mention what the wife got the big DF over to begin with .

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