Sully,
Thanks for the advice. That is probably the most concise summary of the best advice I have gotten so far.
Are you married to a jw? Have you read Hassan's book?
MDP
Calling all "unbelieving mates", AKA husbands and wives of cult members
by Check_Your_Premises 27 Replies latest jw experiences
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Check_Your_Premises
I haven't read Steven Hassan's book yet.
Um, jgnat.... I looked at a bunch of my old messages, and you were one of the people that told me to get this book.
You are obviously an apostate or an opposer ;^)
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M.J.
Check.
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Scully
Thanks for the advice. That is probably the most concise summary of the best advice I have gotten so far.
Are you married to a jw? Have you read Hassan's book?
I hope it's helpful.
Well, I was a JW, married to a JW. I decided I wanted out and had to either accept that I would end up in a "divided household" or find a way to get Mr. Scully to come over to the dark side. It took about 6 months from the time that I decided I wanted out for him to reach the same conclusions that I had (with some prodding from me, of course). Once we arrived at that point, we made lots of plans to keep us "too busy" to attend meetings. We set a date (Jan 1, 1995) as our JW-freedom day. I applied for college. We moved closer to campus and away from our congregation. Our kids had a fresh start too being in a new school.
I read Hassan's book back then, plus many others before ever venturing into Apostate? literature. Some of my favorites are:
- When God Becomes a Drug, by Leo Booth
- Tired of Trying to Measure Up, by Jeff VanVonderen
- The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen
- People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck
If you can get any of these second hand, or from your local library, they are definitely worth the read.
Cheers, Scully
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TheListener
In my experience Scully has hit the nail on the head. If you are slow and methodical about what you're doing you have a much better chance at success. Bringing up all sorts of topics about how bad the society is only causes the dub to shutdown and tune you out. My situation is different because I was a believing mate and now I'm fading out. The most useful information I've received and tried to apply in my life is to support my wife unconditionally. I don't try to discourage her in any way. That includes meetings, service and other assorted dub stuff. Over time she has seen that I am constantly there for her, supporting her and making sure she is ok. The members of the congregation just don't live up to the christian standard they all preach. She has noticed that and it bothers her. She's not said anything verbally but I can sense the embarrassment when "worldly" people (friends I've made since fading) step up to the plate and help out while witness friends aren't available. It may be a long process but unconditional love will win in the end.
Also, almost every new witness experiences a year or two of super self-righteousness. They have a burning zeal to tell everyone about the truth and aren't always as tactful as they should be. This enthusiasm usually dies off after a while when they settle down into a spiritual routine. Trying to convince her of anything in this initial period would probably be a waste of time. This isn't just something I've noticed; it is discussed by the friends at the hall. You can hear some comment from time to time that 'so and so is new and isn't it funny how zealous they are'. You can almost always tell who's been baptized for less than 1 or 2 years.
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Check_Your_Premises
Listener, have you read Hassan's book?
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TheListener
Not yet. It's difficult for me to purchase any books that would be considered apostate or questionable. Although Hassan's book isn't apostate it would send red flags up to my family. I should look for it at the local library or have a trusted friend pick up a copy.
This cloak and dagger sh!#%t really burns me up!
I gotta finish fading so I can be free.
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Check_Your_Premises
Yeah, I hear you, I am just no good at sneaking around.
I had my brother order it, I put it in the dustcover of a political book (just pinkie-to-corner-of-mouth eveeeel enough to keep her from opening it, but not apostate). I only read it on days she is at work, or when I am on my lunch break.
I go out of town tomorrow, and she goes out of town next week. I intend to have the book darn near memorized by the time she gets back.
She busted me buying "The Finished Mystery" on ebay. Not apostate, but it might as well be. That book is the spiritual food that Jesus thought was so proper and timely that He chose the JW to be in charge of his magazine publishing company... or something like that.
I have been trying to build trust and rapport ever since!
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CPiolo
I am a Non-JW married to a JW. My wife returned to the organization about a year after we were married.
While we were dating, she let me know she?d been raised in the religion, but had decided to leave and had no intentions of returning. I let her know at the time that I had dated another JW and that I felt their worldview was incompatible with mine. She reassured me that there was nothing to worry about.
My knowledge of JWs at the time was fairly limited, but I knew enough to know to avoid a relationship with someone from this group. In fact, unless one has no opinions, subjugates their opinions or adopts the opinions of JWs, I don?t believe a relationship with anyone not of the group is possible, with rare exceptions, such as RebelliousSpirit. After our initial discussion, I began researching further the beliefs and practices of JWs. My initial hesitancy was more than warranted.
Well, my wife returned and all the usual conflicts of course arose. I, in turn, made all the usual mistakes in sharing my displeasure ? confronting her with my knowledge of JW doctrinal errors, flip-flops and false prophesy, being open and honest about my feelings regarding the group and its practices, etc. Well, having been well indoctrinated, all the usual walls immediately went up. To this day our relationship suffers and may very well be beyond repair. The main thing holding us together is our child -- not a very good excuse for a marriage.
I?ve read both of Hassan?s books, CoC, just about everything Alan F, Amazing, Farkel, Jan H, Cygnus and many other helpful and kind people have written. I tried to employ the various techniques many of them suggested to try and get my wife to think for herself, all to no avail. After our initial confrontations, she is leery of anything remotely critical of her religion.
In my humble opinion, the best process for extracting someone from the Watchtower is described here: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm. But, this person had been a part of the organization for many years and I don?t think his family knew the extent of his doubts when he began trying to extract them. Therefore, they didn?t view him with the same skepticism and distrust a Non-Witness would be viewed with. He had an inroad we don?t. As well, his familiarity with the group would have helped immensely. Being part of a group gives one an experiential perspective that can?t be gained any other way, no matter how much one reads, researches and discusses with others one?s situation and the JW worldview. He knew intimately where the pitfalls and dangers were. He knew exactly how far he could push, when to back off and how best to approach a JW.
From what I know, the odds are heavily against a healthy relationship between a Non-JW and a JW, and even a former Witness unless they?ve gone done some serious questioning of the group, it?s beliefs and practices. The indoctrination and conditioning are very strong. I don?t want to discourage you, but rather give you a realistic view of where you stand.
What?s to your advantage is that your wife?s involvement is fairly new. She may be indoctrinated, but it fairly fresh and hasn?t had a chance to completely solidify. If you?re careful, patient and vigilant I think you stand a good chance at extracting her.
Listen to the wise counsel of people like AlanF, Farkel, Amazing and others who have enormous experience dealing with this group.
Best of luck, -
Check_Your_Premises
Yeah, I know it is going to be very difficult. But I also don't think it does me any good to think it isn't going to happen. I have to think it will, or for sure, it won't. Dwelling on the difficulties does me know good. I know you just don't want me to think it will be easy, and therefore become easily discouraged. I survived MCRD, and one of the toughest engineering programs in the country... I can survive this. And I also take comfort in Hebrews 13:6, (or is it 6:13) "...what do I have to fear from any man"
They have been at this a lot longer than I have. That is true. The nice thing is, as you pointed out, is that we have so many expienced former witnesses to warn us.
So your wife doesn't trust you. That is a rapport issue, as Hassan pointed out. Have you tried to build rapport with her cult self? For me, I have no chance of freeing her mind, unless I offer an alternative. It is giving me an extra motivation to study the bible, and build my relationship with the Lord. I am trying harder to stay close with my children and wife. So, in a way, the witnesses are making be be a better Christian, a better husband, and a better father.
The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed.
Last night we had a very interesting but informal discussion about many verses. She read a few randomly, I asked her what they meant, and when she gave standard jw propaganda, I would say, "well I also see how it could be read this way..." She was not defensive at all. And it planted the seeds of critical thinking. She knows I have a genuine interest in the word and how it should be applied. It helped me to build rapport with her cult identity.
That is intersting to me that she was sure she would not go back, but then she did? Why did she leave? Why did she return? People mostly make their decisions on their desires, and then use logic to support the decision. What were the underlying desires? What logic did she use before, and after?
Take care, and stay healthy... it is your child's only chance at being able to think for him/her self!