Gods and the Trinity

by the_classicist 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  adelmaal

  I found the following information at: http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=77

  The original Greek texts were all written in what scholars call ?uncial script,? which uses all capital letters . Thus, although we today make a distinction between ?Spirit? and ?spirit,? in the originals every use was just ?SPIRIT.? Whether or not it should be capitalized is a translator?s decision, based on the context of the verse .

  And the following from: http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=138

  Actually, Bible students should be aware that in both the early Hebrew and Greek manuscripts there were no spaces between the words, no punctuation marks, no chapters and no verses . The original texts of both the Old and New Testament were capital letters all run together, and it looked like this:

  INTHEbeginningGODCREATEDTHEHEAVENSANDTHEEARTHNOWT

  HEEARTHWASFORMLESSANDEMPTYDARKNESSWASOVERTHESURFA

  EOFTHEDEEPANDTHESPIRITOFGODWASHOVERINGOVERTHEWATERS

  If this is so, I can now see why it's necessary to take things in context. Can't rely on capitalization!
• 

  Narkissos

  Adelmaal,

  There is nothing in Biblical Hebrew and Greek that can compare to our diacritical use of capitals / lower case => it's up to the translator and his theological / anthropological presuppositions (and that goes for "G/god" too!).

  Now there is little doubt in my mind that the "S/spirit" in the aforementioned texts refers to the core of Christian experience and belief, which is undifferently ascribed to God / the Father or the Son / Jesus. A comparison of Galatians 4 and Romans 8, for instance, would easily show that.

  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ--if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

  And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

  Or the close context of Acts 16:

  They went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. When they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

  Now as I already said, I think the personality of the "S/spirit" (which is neuter in Greek) is much harder to prove from the NT than its (!) divinity. When we read "God is Spirit", is it the Spirit becoming a person or the personal God getting somehow impersonal?

  Imo it is the distinctions, rather than the identification between Father, Son and Spirit, that are most clearly missing in the NT in comparison with the Nicene creed. Those distinctions are made through the words hypostasis and persona, which, btw, only partly correspond to our notion of "person".
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  JosephMalik

  Joseph.It sounds like you're going down the route of the Mormons.

  LITTLE TOE,

  I doubt it. But what does it matter? Only that the scriptures support what I say.

  Joseph

  .
• 

  imac

  1 John 5: 7 says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

  And "Word" is just another title for Jesus.
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  JosephMalik

  Imac,

  Sorry but 1 John 5:7 did not mention the Father or the Word as you are teaching here. You are teaching and supporting a textual gloss added by others. What John really said was:

  5 And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [NAS]

  Notice that John already identified the Spirit as the truth. Therefore his statement simply states this simple truth.

  The Spirit [the truth of the prophetic message given in scripture] water [our baptism and dedication to proclaim this message] and the blood [the sacrifice of Jesus that validates this covenant] all agree as the basis for our faith in this salvation.

  This was a simple message, not some mystic description of trinity as some teach.

  Joseph
  http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/
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  LittleToe

  Interestingly that's the only textual gloss that the WTS really takes serious issue with (though there are some other minor ones to do with hell).

  I wonder why they limit their concern?
  
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  JosephMalik

  Little Toe,

  You will have to ask WT witnesses that question. At the moment this is the only one that caught my interest. There are many variations of texts that deal with much more than just hell. But not all such variations distort the Christian message as much as this one.

  Joseph Malik
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  LittleToe

  Joseph:
  Given that this board is generally given over to JW issues, my point addresses the NWT, not the doctrine of any one particular poster

  On a point of note, what IS the Christian message, to your mind?
  I fail to see how it may be distorted by this single passage/gloss.
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  JosephMalik

  On a point of note, what IS the Christian message, to your mind? I fail to see how it may be distorted by this single passage/gloss.

  Little toe,

  Concerning this gloss the Christian message is not the existence of three Persons that make up the nature of God. Such a message is Antichrist and not truth. Because of this teaching most believe we will become non-human beings at death and go off somewhere else to exist for all eternity. The real message is as John stated:

  1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.. . . 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

  Eternal life does not mean we must undergo a change in nature as non-humans. This same truth that we are to proclaim includes the fact that Christ will return here to rule as a Human Being.

  11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

  So it is at such a time and at such a place that we will exist and be like Him.

  Joseph
  
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  LittleToe

  So what is the Christian message, to your mind?