Gods and the Trinity

by the_classicist 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  adelmaal

  Bear in mind that the Trinity claims as well that the Son and the Father are two separate persons in a relationship with each other, distinguished from each other tho unified

  Some definitions say unified, others say co-equal. I don't buy it. The creation cannot be co-equal to the creator. Mighty is not the same as Almighty. Sure their related, sure their unified, they are not one and the same in my mind though. In my opinion, God and Jesus are two separate gods, they are not one Almighty God, which is what I have always understood the Trinity to mean. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's just the impression I always got from Catholicism and from Calvary Chapel (who in my opinion worships Jesus more than God himself).

  I can almost buy that God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same because I believe the Holy Spirit emanates (SP?) from God in some way; it is a part of him whereas Jesus is a separate creation from him.
• 

  LittleToe

  Zen:

  that the vast majoriity of christians overlook and ignore this is mind boggling to me

  Trinitarians find similar mind boggling difficulties regarding the counter view...
  But we've hashed over the Trinity a few times these last few years, and I have no desire to do so again.

  Adelmaal:

  I can almost buy that God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same because I believe the Holy Spirit emanates (SP?) from God in some way; it is a part of him whereas Jesus is a separate creation from him.

  What do you make of scripture when it speaks of the Holy Spirit belonging to Jesus (as Narkissos commented on)?

  Joseph.It sounds like you're going down the route of the Mormons.
• 

  adelmaal

  LittleToe: Things that make me go hmm...

  Where does it speak "of the Holy Spirit belonging to Jesus"? I did not see that above? Curios to be able to look it up.

  As I said previously, I have no clue as to how the Holy Spirit works into the whole equation. I would love to be enlightened.
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  Narkissos

  Although the vision in Daniel 7 clearly exploits a divine, mythological El / Baal (the old god / the young god) imagery, its application is "human" or "historical" in the broad seense (the "Son of Man" represents the people of God, v. 18,27, just as Michael does in the following chapters).

  Now as to Revelation things might not be so clear-cut, especially if one notices the curious dance around the throne (which is in part inspired from Daniel):

  3:21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

  7:17 for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd

  12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne

  22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

  22:3 But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him
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  Narkissos

  Adelmaal,

  Acts 16:7: When they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

  Galatians 4:6: And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

  Philippians 1:19: for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance

  Even more puzzling, for Trinitarians too:

  1 Corinthians 15:45: Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

  2 Corinthians 3:17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
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  the_classicist

  adelmaal: There is no definitive scripture that shows that "the Holy Spirit belongs to Jesus." The Catholic Church decided to put the Filioque clause into the Nicene Creed at a post-Nicene council (as in "The Holy Spirit... proceeding from the Father and the Son). The Orthodox, however, would not consider the Spirit as proceeding from the Son, but rather from the Father through the Son.

  Galatians 4:6: And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ?Abba! Father!? (NRSV).

  But in Trinitarian formulation, the Holy Spirit wouldn't "belong to" anyone. It is a separate person.

  This is part of the Athanasian Creed: The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
• 

  LittleToe

  Adelmaal:
  Just a few texts to read, preferably in context, to see what you make of them. I have no desire to convince anyone one way or another, and so am supplying no additional commentary. I would openly disclose that I hold a Trinitarian view of God, though you should be aware that the doctrine means slightly different things to different people. I would by the same stroke state that Leo and Narkissos are not, and as such their comments above are relatively free from bias. All quotations from the KJV:

  2Cor.3:17, 18 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

  Phil.1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

  2Thess.2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

  Further, on a slightly different note, these may be of interest:

  Rom.15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

  1Cor.12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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  adelmaal

  Thanks for all those citations everyone.

  Funny how when I look them up the only Bible I can find that does not capitalize the word "Spirit" as though it is a person or as though it is the Holy Spirit and not just the same as saying "the spirit of Chrismas" is the NWT. LOL. [sarcasm] Are the GB yet again the only ones to truly understand direct translation of Greek and Hebrew into English!!! [/sarcasm]

  Anyone know off the top of your head how to tell if the original text was meant to be capitalized or lowercase? Is it left up to the reader to discern this or was there some correct grammar that was used to denote a proper noun vs. an improper one in any of these scriptures?
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  adelmaal

  2 Cor 3:17 reads in part hO DE KURIOS TO PNEUMA ESTIN. The
  NRSV translates this as "Now the Lord is the Spirit". Is "the Spirit" the
  Father, Son, Holy Spirit or something else entirely?
  
  An article in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly (CBQ, 34 (1972) 467)
  quotes a 1915 article by Alfred Plummer,which noted that this "is a
  passage, about the exact meaning of which we must be content to
  remain in doubt".
  
  I have studied this problem recently with little success. I would
  appreciate hearing what is considered to be the modern view of whom
  the Spirit/spirit is in this verse.

  Found this post elsewhere. Guess he/she was wondering along the same lines I am.
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  Leolaia

  zen nudist....I agree that the absence of the Holy Spirit in these visions could indeed be a problem, assuming that the Spirit should have been depicted (as it is in the synoptic depiction of Jesus' baptism, in which the Holy Spirit appears in bodily form). However, as for the distinction between the Son and the Father (as in Revelation 4-5), as I mentioned before this would not be a problem for trinitarian theology because the two are not "confused" with each other in the Trinity and are instead regarded as distinct persons and would thus presumably appear as such in merkebah visions. Their unity however is also also implicit elsewhere in Revelation. The "Lord God Almighty and the Lamb" together comprise the eschatological "Temple" (21:22), both the Father and the Lamb sit on the "Throne" (3:21, 7:17, 12:5, 22:3), salvation belongs only to "our God who sits on the Throne and his Lamb" (7:10), both the Lamb and the Lord God are called the First and the Last and the Alpha and the Omega (1:8, 17, 2:8, 21:6, 22:13; cf. Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 which refer to Yahweh as the "First and the Last"), both the Lamb and the Lord God shine providing light in place of sunlight in New Jerusalem (21:23, 22:5), and so forth. Note also that the description of the Lamb in Revelation draws on the description of the Ancient of Days in Daniel and other OT scriptures referring to Yahweh (cf. "the hairs on his dead were white like wool, as white as snow," Revelation 1:14 = Daniel 7:9, "his voice was like the roar of many waters," Revelation 1:15 = Ezekiel 43:2), which is reflective of the overall pervasive pattern in the NT of applying to Jesus OT scriptures referring to Yahweh (cf. for instance Joel 2:32 = Romans 10:9-13, Isaiah 45:21-25 = Philippians 2:9-11, Jeremiah 17:10 = Revelation 2:18-23, etc.). Again, this is not at all intended to show trinitarianism is in the Bible per se (it is rather as much an artificial construct as all other harmonizing christologies), and rather I prefer to take each text on its own terms, but it is pretty hard to deny that many NT writers saw Jesus Christ in light of the "Lord God" of the OT. Along with the full-fledged deity ascribed to Christ in John, Colossians, and other texts, it does not seem reasonable to argue that a stated relationship between the Son and Father necessarily removes any basis for recognizing Jesus Christ as God.