4 ezra and revelation

by peacefulpete 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I sold some of my books recently and have not found any discussion on line about the allusions to 4 Ezra in the NT. This passage in particular requires some explanation:

    4.35-37: Did not the souls of the righteous in their chambers ask about these matters, saying, ?How long are we to remain here? And when will the harvest of our reward come?? And the archangel Jeremiel answered and said, ?When the number of those like yourselves is completed; for he has weighted the age in the balance, and measured the times by measure, and numbered the times by number; and he will not more or arouse them until that measure is fulfilled.?

    Clearly this is mirrored in Rev :9-11:

    9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, ?How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?? 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

    Any thoughts?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Very interesting parallel.

    The question of influence is open though as 4 Ezra and Revelation are roughly contemporaries. At the very least it is an excellent testimony to the apocalyptical ideas "in the air".

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Hey Narkissos, ya I know that generally both are dated to about 100 but the language is so similar, more than just apocalyptic ideas are being expressed.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Interesting post. The question of a literary relationship between Revelation and 4 Ezra would seem at first glance less likely than the possibility of both being cognate works, since both would have been written supposedly around the same time (e.g. at the close of the first century), but it has also been recognized that 4 Ezra has been compiled from earlier apocalyptic materials and the passage you cite is part of the so-called Salathiel Apocalypse that is presumed to lie behind the present text of 4 Ezra. The earliest clear quotation from either 4 Ezra or one its sources, aside from Revelation, appears to be Barnabas 12:1:

    Barnabas 12:1: "Similarly he once again gives an explantation about the cross in another prophet, who says: 'And when shall these things be accomplished (pote tauta suntelesthésetai)? The Lord says: "When a tree falls over and rises again, and when blood drips from a tree (hotan ek xulou haima staxé)" ' ".

    4 Ezra 1:22-23: "Thus says the Lord Almighty: 'When you were in the wilderness ... I did not send fire upon you for your blasphemies, but threw a tree into the water and made the stream sweet' ".

    4 Ezra 4:33: "Then I answered and said, 'How long and when will these things be? For our years are few and evil.' "

    4 Ezra 5:4-5: "If the Most High grants that you live, you shall see the earth thrown into confusion after the third, and the sun shall suddenly shine forth at night, and the moon during the day. Blood shall drip from wood, and the stone shall utter its voice".

    Since the author of Barnabas appears to combine elements drawn from different places in 4 Ezra, he appears to know the work as it has been redacted together rather than one of its sources. Interestingly, the quotation includes the same phrase from 4 Ezra 4:33 that also appears in some form in Revelation 6:10:

    Revelation 6:9-11: "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long (heós pote), Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?' Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."

    4 Ezra 4:33-37, 42: "Then I answered and said, 'How long and when will these things be? Why are our years few and evil?' He answered me and said, 'You do not hasten faster than the Most High, for your haste is for yourself, but the Highest hastens on behalf of many. Did not the souls of the righteous in their chambers ask about these matters, saying, "How long are we to remain here? And when will come the harvest of our reward?" And Jeremiel the archangel answered them and said, " When the number of those like yourselves is completed, for he has weighted the age in the balance, and measured the times by measure, and numbered the times by number, and he will not move or arouse them until that measure is fulfilled." ' ... In Hades the chambers of the souls are like the womb."

    Here the parallels are compelling because both scenes picture the dead martyrs in the abode of the dead (Hades, "under the altar") asking the Lord how long they will have to continue to wait, and they are told to wait until the (1) number of (2) those like themselves had reached its (3) completion. The questions posed to Uriel in 4 Ezra also have parallels in the disciples' question in Mark 13:4, regarding when the prophesied things were to occur:

    Mark 13:4: "When will these things happen (pote oun tauta estai)? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place (ti to sémeion hotan melé tauta ginesthai)?

    4 Ezra 4:33, 35, 51-52: "Then I answered and said, 'How long and when will these things be? For our years are few and evil... How long are we to remain here? And when will come the harvest of our reward? ... Then I prayed and said, 'Do you think that I shall live until those days? Or who will be alive in those days?' He answered me and said, 'Concerning the signs about which you ask me, I can tell you in part, but I was not sent to tell you concerning your own life, for I do not know' ".

    Compare the wording in Greek with the 4 Ezra citation in Barnabas (cf. pote tauta suntelesthésetai vs. pote oun tauta estai/tauta ginesthai). There are also paralels between 4 Ezra 4:33, 35, 51-52 and 2 Baruch, a cognate apocalypse from the same period: "The present years are few and evil, and who can inherit that which is unmeasurable in this short time... How long will corruption remain, and until when will the time of mortals be happy, and until when will those who pass away be polluted by the great wickedness of this world?" (2 Baruch 16:1, 21:19). There are other considerable parallels with Revelation, especially the following:

    Revelation 7:9, 13, 14:1, 3: "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes, who are they, and where did they come from?' ".... Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads, ... and they sang a new song before the throne and before the elders and the four living creatures".

    4 Ezra 2:42-46: "I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs...Then I asked an angel, 'Who are these, my lord?' He answered and said to me, 'These are they who have put off mortal clothing and put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned and receive palms'. Then I said to the angel, 'Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?' ".

    4 Ezra 13:32-40: "And they shall plan to make war against one another, city against city, place against place, people against people, and kingdom against kingdom. And when these things come to pass and the signs occur which I showed you before, then my Son will be revealed, whom you saw as a man coming up from the sea. And when all the nations hear his voice, every man shall leave his own land and the warfare that they have against one another, and an innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as you saw, desiring to come and conquer him. But he will stand on the top of Mount Zion. And Zion will come and be made manifest to all people, prepared and built ... and he will reprove the assembled nations for their ungodliness.... And as for your seeing him gather to himself another multitude that was peaceable, these are the ten tribes which were led away from their own land into captivity in the days of King Hoshea, whom Shalmaneser the king of the Assyrians led captive; he took them across the river, and they were taken into another land".

    Note that the "innumerable multitude" is drawn from all the nations of the earth, while "another multitude" of 4 Ezra which comes together with the Son of Man at Mount Zion is drawn from the ten lost tribes of Israel -- somewhat similar to the 144,000 of Revelation which is sealed from the tribes of Israel.

    The main question is whether we have direct dependence here or cognate traditions. The relationship between 4 Ezra and the "Little Apocalypse" of Mark (and Matthew, Luke) is especially close, so dependence is quite possible between Mark and a precursor of the present text.... but the relationship is hopelessly muddled due to the lack of evidence, not in the least the lack of any Greek or Aramaic version of the text (which survives only in Latin and a Syriac translation).

  • gumby
    gumby
    THE DATE OF COMPOSITION IS C. 100 C.E.

    • Earliest complete MSS: Syriac, 6th century; Latin, 9th century
    • Sahidic Coptic fragments, 6th-8th centuries.
    • Quoted often in Latin by Ambrose in the late fouth century; and 5:35 is quoted in Greek by Clement of Alexandria in the late second century
    • 3:1 - 30th year (after destruction in 70 C.E.?)
    • No allusions to Bar Kokhba revolt in 132-135 C.E.
    • Eagle vision in 11-12 is usually understood to belong in context of late 1st century C.E. But note that DiTommaso argues that Eagle Vision dates to c. 218 C.E (reign of Septimus Severus), although composed originally c. 100 and updated and redacted such that original is irrecoverable. If he is correct, this is an important example of a Christian addition to an OT Pseudepigraphon which entirely lacks Christian signature features.

    I'd have to agree with the Narkmeister from what I have read as being dated about 100C.E.

    Ezra 5:35 is quoted in greek by Clement in the late 2nd century, there is no mention or hint to Bar Kokhba war in about 130 C.E. or a bit after. Chapter 3 is no more than 30 years after Jerusalems destruction in 70C.E. or soon after it was destroyed. Funny how more than one man can be this damn crazy to write sumthin that amounts to a bunch a poop.

    Gumzra

    In 11-12...the 'Eagle Vision' is agreed bhy most to be late 1st century. Chapter 3

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    gumby....Part of the problem tho is the fact that the author of 4 Ezra likely utilized pre-existing apocalyptic sources, and it may be such sources (either oral or written) which were also employed by the author of Revelation. The commentary of 4 Ezra by Michael E. Stone discusses this issue in quite some detail and says:

    "A similar preexistent source may be utilized in the mourning woman's tale in the fourth vision (9:43-10:3). Three particular short passages also seem to be based on very specific preexisting material. The first is the passage about the souls of the righteous (4:35-37). The second is the description of Behemoth and Leviathan (6:49-52), while the third such individual tradition deals with the ten tribes (13:40-47). These three passages are marked out both by their crystallized and distinct character and traditions and by the fact that they expatiate on their subject far beyond the requirements of the context. Certainly some of the author's building blocks can be discerned here" (p. 22).

    So it is the critical opinion of some that the very passage paralleled in Revelation 6:9-11 depends on earlier sources, and the tradition about the ten tribes that is utilized in 4 Ezra 13 and paralleled in the texts about the 144,000 in Revelation also may derive from a preexisting source.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Hey Leolaia, thanks for the nice response. I suspected that some literary connection existed and assumed that was through source material. Parts of Revelation as we have discussed before appear to have been a jewish work before adopted and adapted by "John". The 4 Ezra quote:

    4 Ezra 13:32-40: "And they shall plan to make war against one another, city against city, place against place, people against people, and kingdom against kingdom. And when these things come to pass and the signs occur which I showed you before, then my Son will be revealed, whom you saw as a man coming up from the sea. And when all the nations hear his voice, every man shall leave his own land and the warfare that they have against one another, and an innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as you saw, desiring to come and conquer him. But he will stand on the top of Mount Zion. And Zion will come and be made manifest to all people, prepared and built ... and he will reprove the assembled nations for their ungodliness.... And as for your seeing him gather to himself another multitude that was peaceable, these are the ten tribes which were led away from their own land into captivity in the days of King Hoshea, whom Shalmaneser the king of the Assyrians led captive; he took them across the river, and they were taken into another land".

    also seems thematically to be related to this Rev passage:

      "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. " Revelation 20:7-9
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Indeed, that is very much in the same vein. Also check out the parallel in 4 Ezra 2, which I just included in the example in my first post. It is even more strikingly like Revelation, amazingly so.

    4 Ezra 2:42-46: "I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs...Then I asked an angel, 'Who are these, my lord?' He answered and said to me, 'These are they who have put off mortal clothing and put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned and receive palms'. Then I said to the angel, 'Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?' ".

    See also the vision of heavenly Jerusalem and the planted tree of life in 4 Ezra 10:25-28 and the oracle against Babylon in 4 Ezra 15:46-63, 16:1.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Something's afoot

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here are the parallels with the synoptic apocalypse in Mark. I find them very compelling, suggesting that both 4 Ezra and Mark rely on a common apocalyptic traditions, if not a common literary source.

    Mark 13:4: "When will these things happen (pote oun tauta estai)? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place (ti to sémeion hotan melé tauta ginesthai)?

    4 Ezra 4:33, 35, 51-52: "Then I answered and said, 'How long and when will these things be? ... How long are we to remain here? And when will come the harvest of our reward? ... Then I prayed and said, 'Do you think that I shall live until those days? Or who will be alive in those days?' He answered me and said, 'Concerning the signs about which you ask me, I can tell you in part, but I was not sent to tell you concerning your own life, for I do not know' ".

    Mark 13:7-8: "When you hear wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the birth pangs".

    4 Ezra 6:14-15: "If the place where you are standing is greatly shaken while the voice is speaking, do not be terrified; because the word concerns the end ... for they know their end must be changed".

    4 Ezra 13:8-9: "So when there shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations, ... then you will know that it was of these that the Most High spoke from the days that were of old".

    4 Ezra 13:31: "And they shall plan to make war against one another, city against city, place against place, people against people, and kingdom against kingdom".

    4 Ezra 15:14-15: "Alas for the world and for those who live in it! For the sword and misery draw near them, and nation shall rise up to fight against nation, with swords in their hands".

    4 Ezra 16:22: "For many of those who live on the earth shall perish by famine; and those who survive the famine shall die by the sword".

    4 Ezra 16:37-38: "Just as a woman with child, in the ninth month, when the time of her delivery draws near, has great pains about her womb for two or three hours beforehand, and when the child comes forth from her womb, there will not be a moment's delay, so the calamities will not delay in coming forth upon the earth".

    Mark 13:12: "And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise up against their parents and have them put to death".

    4 Ezra 6:24: "At that time, friends shall make war on friends like enemies".

    Mark 13:13: "You will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved".

    4 Ezra 5:41: "Behold, O Lord, you have charge of those who are alive at the end, but what will those do who were before us".

    Mark 13:17-20: "Woe to those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days".

    4 Ezra 13:16-20: "Woe to those who will survive in those days! And still more, woe to those who do not survive! For those who do not survive will be sorrowful, because they understand what is in store for the last days, but not attaining it. But woe also to those who do survive, for this reason -- they will see great dangers and much distress, as these dreams show. Yet it is better to come into these things, through incurring peril, than to pass from the world like a cloud, and not to see what shall happen in the last days".

    Mark 13:24-25: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars fall from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken".

    4 Ezra 5:4-5: "The sun shall suddenly shine forth at night, and the moon during the day, blood shall drip from wood, and the stone shall utter its voice; the peoples shall be troubled, and the stars shall fall".

    Mark 13:52: "But concerning that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father".

    4 Ezra 4:52: "Concerning the signs about which you ask me, I can tell you in part; but I was not sent to tell you concerning your life, for I do not know".

    However, it is also interesting that the Matthean expansion of Mark's apocalypse contains further parallels to 4 Ezra:

    Matthew 24:12: "And because wickedness is increased, most men's love will grow cold".

    4 Ezra 5:2: "And unrighteousness shall be increased beyond what you yourself see".

    Matthew 24:31: "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other".

    4 Ezra 6:23: "And the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall all be terrified".

    Matthew 24:40-41: "Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left".

    4 Ezra 16:25-31: "No one shall be left to cultivate the earth or to sow it. The trees shall bear fruit, and who will gather it? The grapes shall ripen, and who shall tread them? For in all places there shall be great solitude; one man will long to see another, or even to hear his voice. For out of a city, ten shall be left; and out of the field, two who have hidden themselves in thick groves and clefts in the rocks. As in an olive orchard, there or four olives may be left on every tree ... so in those days three or four shall be left".

    Matthew 25:34: "Then the King will say to those on the right hand: 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world".

    4 Ezra 2:10-13: "Tell my people that I will give them the kingdom of Jerusalem, which I was going to give to Israel. Moreover I will take back to myself their glory, and will give to these others the everlasting habitations, which I had prepared for Israel.... Ask and you shall receive; pray that your days may be few, that they may be shortened. The kingdom is already prepared for you, watch!"

    There are a few other gospel parallels as well, but the apocalyptic links are compelling....

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