The following is an answer to some questions put to me by a reader on this forum, I have done my best to answer these with the Holy Spirit's leading, I hope this will anwer questions for many people on these issues. The questions asked are in the 'quotes'.
My next posting due early next week will deal with supposed violence and judgement in the Old Testament as many in this forum have stated that they can't understand the issue of violence as they see a God of violence portrayed in the Old testament and can't reconcile Him with a God of Love. I will endeavour to address this issue in some detail...Thank you and God Bless...
Can I ask a couple of things please, you might be able to help me make some sense of this.
Do you believe in hell as an everlasting place of torture? because thats what every church i ever went to teaches, even though its clear, time and time again the bible says the wages of sin is death.
Yes, hell is an everlasting place of torture and the wages of sin is death. Let?s look at what the bible says about death and sin and how both concepts are consistent with both death and hell being a place of everlasting torture
1/ In Genesis 2:17 God says to Adam, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now, did Adam physically die the day he ate the apple..? No, we know that Adam lived many years longer. Either this means one of two things, God was mistaken when he told Adam that on that day he would surely die OR that God meant something other than physical death..
The word for die that God used in Hebrew is muwth which means - to die (as penalty), which links back nicely to Romans 6:23 ? the wages of sin is death. The penalty of sin is death. The bible clearly throughout scripture identifies that the death spoken about is spiritual death, not physical death. On the day that Adam ate the apple, he died, ?spiritually?. However from the moment Adam ate the apple he also brought physical death into the world, he might not have physically died on the same day but he was now detined to die physically at some time in the future. So there is a double meaning in God?s words. Adam would die spiritually on the day he ate the apple but he would also die in the sense that he would be ?destined? to physically die sometime after that day
Let?s look a little more at Genesis to support this line of reasoning
1/ When Adam disobeyed, he experienced immediate spiritual death, which caused him to hide ?from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden? (Genesis 3:8).
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden
Notice he hid from his ?presence?, where before he disobeyed he was in Gods?s presence continually, afterwards we see an immediate seperation where Adam now needs to separate and hide himself from God?s presence. This is because Adam can now no longer be in the fully manifest presence of perfect and Holy God as he has ?sinned?.
Later, Adam experienced physical death (Genesis 5:5).
The Bible presents death as separation: physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. So Adam experienced immediate spiritual death but delayed physical death, the spirit did not cease to exist the day it died, it became ?seperated? from God. This is also described in Isaiah
"Your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you." (Isa. 59:2)
The bible explains that there are two types of bodies, spritual and earthly,
1 Cor 15:40
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
our earthly bodies will be changed and we will be given new immortal bodies that will never taste death?.will no longer be subject to the physical death that sin brought into the world
1 Cor 15:51 - 55
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
When we read Romans 6:23 it is talking about physical death, for the wages of sin is death, we deserve death for sin, and sin brought physical death into the world
The whole world is subject to death, because all have sinned. ?By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned? (Romans 5:12).
However even though we die because of sin, we are promised ulimate freedom from death (physical and spiritual) because of the redemptive blood of Jesus who dies in our place and takes the death? penalty ?, in this sense, eternal seperation from His presence, that we should have had to pay.
Look at the following scriptures in Romans
For if by one man's (Adam?s) offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The free gift of grace offered to us in the righteous sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins set?s us free from the condemnation of death mentioned in Romans 6:23 and replaces it with eternal life, that is spiritual life (we are restored in our relationship with God and can experience his presence as the blood of Jesus covers our sin and so we are no longer tainted but clean and without sin stain in the presence of a Holy God), see Rev 1:5 (below)
And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1Jhn 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
What does the bible say about those who are made righteous??
Mt 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
So the spiritual death of Adam was seperation from God?s presence. Just because Adam was to die physically later does not mean he would cease to exist upon death, it simply means his sin immediately seperated from God?s presence (spiritual death) and was destined to physically die in the future. The bible tells us that once we physically die, the soul continues to exist?even for those who do not die with their sins covered by Christ?s blood
For example
Hebrerws 9:27 ?And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment?. So, after death the judgement?this obviously means that we all continue to exist spirtually as we will ALL be judged?.
On the cross, Jesus also experienced both spiritual death (when He cried ?My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?? Matthew 27:46), and physical death (Matthew 27:50). The difference is, Adam died because he was a sinner, and Jesus, who had never sinned, chose to die as a substitute for sinners (Hebrews 2:9).
Jesus then showed His power over death and sin by rising from the dead on the third day (Matthew 28; Revelation 1:18). Because of Christ, death is a defeated foe. ?O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?? (1 Corinthians 15:55; Hosea 13:14).
For the unsaved, death brings to an end the chance to accept God?s gracious offer of salvation and to have that broken relationship, the ability to stand in His manifest presence restored?. ?It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment? (Hebrews 9:27).
For the saved, death ushers us into the presence of Christ. ?To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord? (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23). So real is the promise of the believer?s resurrection, that the physical death of a Christian is called ?sleep? (1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 5:10). We look forward to that time when ?there shall be no more death? (Revelation 21:4).
Revelations talks about the day of that judgement and what will happen to those whose sentence is Hell and eternal seperation from God?s presence?This answers your next question as to whether Hell is a place of everlasting torture
Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
How long does this last???
The punishment of the wicked is as never-ending as the bliss of the righteous. Unbelievers are not given a second chance, nor are they annihilated. The punishment of the wicked dead is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41); "
"shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2);
a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49);
a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24) "everlasting destruction" (2Thes 1:9);
a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev. 14:10,11); and
a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Here Jesus indicates that the punishment itself is everlasting
Also, Adam and Eve were created to live on earth forever. whilst they sinned and brought the death penalty on their heads, when did god decide faithful man kind would go to live in heaven. Why did he change his mind? We werent designed for heaven.
Adam and Eve didnt need a spirit that survived death as they were meant to live forever, so where did people get this spirit from and who first got one?
God didn?t change His mind, just because Adam & Eve were ?designed? to live forever didn?t mean that the design couldn?t break down in the face of outside (outside the original design) corruption, that outside corruption was sin, it ruined what God had designed?This all comes down to free will. Would God create robots with no ability to make choices or would he give man the ability to freely choose to follow Him for who he was, their Father, their creator, provider
Because Adam and Eve chose Satan as their ruler, God had to let him have his way in this world. But, God in His infinite mercy promised to put enmity between man and Satan, and that a Messiah or Saviour would come and die for the sins of mankind. Those who believed and obeyed this Saviour would one day go to heaven
Satan was the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30.), but Jesus Christ through His death on the cross of Calvary redeemed it to Himself. This world rightly belongs to Jesus both by creation and redemption. However, lots of people still choose to have Satan as their ruler. It is Satan's rule of lawlessness not God's, that has put this world in the condition that it is in.
Adam and Eve didn?t need a spirit that survived death
Maybe they didn?t need one that survived death but they were created with a spirit that is separate to their earthly bodies?read Corinthians, particularly
1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
It is also written that there is a earthly body and a spiritual body, this is also reflected in that we were made in God?s image who does not have Cor 15:44
1 Cor 15: 44 There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The fact that we see Adam according to God?s word surely died on the day he ate the apple, that he suffered immediate death but that he did not physically die show clearly that it was His spirit that must have been seperate as he hid from God?s presence?So Adam clearly had a spirit from the very beginning that was seperate to the body as the evidence of scripture clearly shows. If it is seperate to the physical body then clearly it could survive physical death of the body, nothing in the bible says that the physical and the spirtiual (soul) of Adam were dependant on each other, in fact it shows they are poles apart...it also shows that Adams spirit apart from His body suffered death that day..death as seperation from His presence..
Also if God created Adam and Eve with free will and therefore the ability to disobey, and if we accept that God know?s what will happen in advance he must have known how Adam would exercise His will before he even created Him and that he would have a plan of redemption for all mankind, to me that would be evidence that God designed Adam and Eve to have a spirit that would obviously survives death, otherwise his plaan of redemption, planned since the beginning of time, would have been in vain, that is just extra evidence that supports the verses I have pointed out above
The final question I will answer is
when did God decide faithful mankind would go to heaven?
My answer, the bible?s answer is that immediately after Adam sinned we see God referring to His plan of redemption, from the moment sin entered the world God already had a plan to bring salvation. We see the first sign in the following statement in Genesis
So the Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers: He will crush your head and you will strike His heel.
This difficult verse contains many profound and important truths which God's prophets would later explain in detail. The contents of this verse, can be summarized like this: God was beginning to make known His plan to bring into the world a Savior {or Deliverer} who would redeem the children of Adam from the dominion of Satan. This is the first verse that mentions the coming of the holy Redeemer {or Mediator}. In this verse, let us consider four truths concerning the Redeemer whom God promised to send.
1.) The first truth is this: God was announcing how this Redeemer would be born of a woman only, that is, a virgin. All of us have a male and a female parent. However, the Redeemer who was to come, would be born only of a woman, by the power of God. He would not have an earthly father. The Savior of the world could not come from Adam, because all of Adam's descendants are stained by sin. The Savior of sinners had to be without sin. He had to come forth from God, from heaven. Thus, the first thing we may learn from this verse is this: God promised a holy Redeemer who would be the offspring of a woman, but not the offspring of a man.
2.) There is something else that God announced on the day that Adam and Eve sinned. Concerning the promised Redeemer, God said to Satan: "You will strike his heel." Thus, God began to announce how Satan would torment the Savior that God would send from heaven. The prophets foretold how Satan would incite men to persecute, torture and kill the Redeemer. A stricken Redeemer would be part of God's plan. In order to bring us back to God, the Savior of the world would have to die as a sacrifice for sin; the Righteous One dying for us, the unrighteous. He would willingly lay down His life to pay sin's penalty: death.
3.) The third truth concerning the Redeemer was that God told Satan, who was in the serpent, that "he (the Redeemer) would crush his (Satan's) head." That was bad news for Satan, but good news for whoever wants to be delivered from the power of Satan, sin and hell! Thus, God began to announce that the Redeemer would, in the end, defeat the devil and set free the children of Adam who had become slaves of sin.
4.) Finally, God began to announce that there would be two lines (groups) of people in the world: The people of Satan and the people of God. The people of Satan are those who refuse to believe the Word of God. The people of God are those who believe God's Word and put their trust in the promised Redeemer. (John 1:9-13)
Thus, on the day that Adam and Eve sinned, God began to announce His wondrous plan to redeem sinners
and finally, your last question
who are the meek that will inherit the earth, if born agains go to heaven, the rest go to hell.
There will be a thousand year reign on earth after the second coming, those who have made it to heaven or who have been born again will be there (so this means Jesus will view all those who have been born again as meek, meek in spirit in that they gave themselves up, their own wants and desires, for Christ)
I would like to conclude with the following observations on Adam and Eve?s original sin and why God needed to judge that sin and how God?s reaction to the sin has echoed down throughout the ages and how His heart?s cry still echoes in our heart today when we sin?..
Like Satan, Adam had rejected God's rule over him. Could God just say, "It's no big deal!" and let Adam go free without judging him? Never! God is holy and He must judge sin! God can never approve evil. He must punish it. The prophet Habakkuk wrote: "My God, my Holy One?your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong!" (Hab. 1:12,13) Yes, "The Lord will judge His people! It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!" (Heb. 10:30,31) God's holy nature requires that He judge and punish every sin. Therefore, it was necessary that He judge Adam and Eve because of their sin. That is why immediately after Adam sinned we read: "But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'" (Gen. 3:9)
What did God do after Adam sinned? God went seeking after Adam, calling out to him, "Where are you?" Did Adam go looking for God? No! He was trying to hide from God! Why did God call out to Adam? Didn't He know where Adam was? God, who sees and knows everything, knew exactly where Adam was hiding! God called out to Adam, because He wanted Adam to recognize and confess his sin before Him. God still loved Adam although he had disobeyed Him.
What did Adam reply when God asked, "Where are you?" The Scriptures say:
?Adam answered, 'I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.' And the Lord God said, 'Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?' [Adam] said, 'The woman you put here with me, she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.' Then the Lord God said to the woman, 'What is this you have done?' The woman said, 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate.'" (Gen. 3:10-13)
Did you hear how Adam and Eve answered God? Each tried to blame someone else. Adam accused both God and Eve, saying: It's not my fault! The woman you gave me--it's her fault! As for Eve, she blamed the serpent saying, Don't blame me--the serpent deceived me! However, God who knows the heart of man, knew that they were both guilty. God did not make them eat the fruit of the tree. Satan also did not make them eat it. Satan can tempt and deceive people, but he cannot force anyone to sin. Satan deceived Eve, but what she did was still sin before God. As for Adam, the Scripture tells us that he was not deceived. (1 Tim. 2:14)
When Adam chose to sin he consciously chose to go his own way, He was not deceived by the serpent like Eve Adam knew exactly what God had commanded, but he chose to stray from the way of righteousness, and follow the way of unrighteousness. And he didn't stop with disobeying God, but added sin to his sin by trying to put the blame on others.
To this day, people still attempt to blame others for their transgressions, but God knows the truth. Through the Holy Scriptures, God is speaking to people, saying: Where are you? Answer me! What have you done? Why do you refuse to believe and obey my Word? Why do you despise my goodness? Why do you try to blame others for your own sin? "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'Every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God."(Rom. 14:11,12)
God desires for us to be in His presence, he wants us to draw near to Him, to His presence, as it is written, ?if you draw near to me I will draw near to you?..that is God?s heart cry, intimacy with His people, with His creation?he yearns for us?.where are you He cries, when we hide ourselves from His face in our sin?A Prayer For All
Lord, I draw close to You today, grateful that You will draw close to me as You have promised in Your Word (James 4:8). I long to dwell in Your presence, and my desire is for a deeper and more intimate relationship with You. I want to know You in every way You can be known. Teach me what I need to learn in order to know You better. I don?t want to be a person who is ?always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? (2 Timothy 3:7). I want to know the truth about who You are, because I know that You are near to all who call upon You in truth (Psalm 145:18).
I am open to whatever You want to do in me. I don?t want to limit You by neglecting to acknowledge You in every way possible. I declare this day that You are my Healer, my Deliverer, my Redeemer, and my Comforter. Today I especially need to know You as God Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the Great I AM
God, help me to set aside time each day to meet with You alone. Enable me to resist and eliminate all that would keep me from it. Teach me to pray the way You want me to. Help me to learn more about You. Lord, you have said, ?If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink? (John 7:37). I thirst for more of You because I am in a dry place without You. I come to You this day and drink deeply of Your Spirit.
I know You are everywhere, but I also know that there are deeper manifestations of Your presence that I long to experience. Draw me close so that I may dwell in Your presence like never before.