jehovah's organization and dual fulfillment prophecy

by jaredg 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jaredg

    again thanks for the replys. usually the simple answer is the correct one and to me there is no more simple explanation of matt 24:45-47 than it being JUST a parable and nothing more. my dad has yet to give me any scriptual evidence as to how the WTS came to the conclusion that this parable is actually a prophecy for our time.

    but as far as revelation goes i have yet to find an explanation that satisfies me. i know that the WTS tries to apply many of the prophecies from revelation to themselves but my question is more simple...what time period in general is revelation written for? if it was written after the destruction or jerusalem and after the "greta tribulation" that preceeded the destruction then WHY and for WHAT reason?

  • blondie


    my dad says the roman orthodox church became the slave and so on and son on through luther and the prodestants and so on until today. his belief is that even though the teachings were not accurate they were the best at that time and it set th foundation for C.T. to establish true christianity.

    But can he show you in the WTS publications where the WTS has said that. I have found that JWs have many personal beliefs but they are not the official position of the WTS.

  • truth_about_the_truth


    This can be classified as a whole new topic but here goes....

    I don't know how much credibility you put in non-mainstream news of current events but it looks like Revelation is being fulfilled right now as we speak.

    If you find this interesting, take your time....there is TONS of info on this.

  • TD


    my dad disaggress and backs it up by saying that god has always had an organization or his righteous people on earth. it used to be isreal...

    (All this is said with the JW cap of Biblical inerrancy and literalism firmly in place)

    Is organizational affliation necessary for approval by God? Was Job faithful? Was he a party to the Law Covenant? Was Melchizedek faithful? Was he a party to the Abrahamic Covenant?

    but when jesus came he changed that and established a new convenant/congregation. he then goes on about matt. 24: 45-47 and the faithful slave and such so then he says that if the WTS isn't the faithful slave then WHO is? he kept on asking me WHO, WHO...

    He's talking about the parable of the faithful steward (Matthew 24:46-49 Luke 12:42-46)

    42 And the Lord said: ?Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave, IF his master on arriving finds him doing so! 44 I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ?My master delays coming,? and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting [him] and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones (Luke 12:42-46 New World Translation -emphasis mine)

    Notice that Jesus never said the "slave" would prove faithful. Jesus said, "IF."

    The language here is therefore clearly conditional, allowing for two possible outcomes: The slave could prove faithful and be rewarded or the slave could prove unfaithful and be punished. The one making this determination would be the master (Jesus) not the slave himself.

    So the question of "WHO WHO WHO" is one big, fat false dilemma. He's asking you to make a judgement that it is up to Jesus and Jesus alone to make.

    Ask him, "When did it become appropriate for the slave to judge his own faithfulness?"

    Jehovah's Witnesses have "jumped the gun" by declaring themselves to be faithful and wise based on their on subjective interpretation of events, not because Jesus actually told them.

  • Goldminer

    When I was a zealous jw,I would always try to keep things simple.So I'll try the same here.

    MT 24:45-47 is just one of Jesus' many illustrations that he used to teach people in a simple way.If there is a dual meaning to this parable then all of Jesus' illustrations must have a dual meaning and also apply at some future time beyond 33 C.E.

  • Raphael

    The WTS has a correct understanding with regard to certain elements of who comprise the FDS.

    Many Christain churches teach , that this parable is applicable to each individual christian baptised in holy spirit, just as they believe that all born again believers serve as "priests" while still on earth 1 Peter 2:9.These roles are not limited to just 144000 as the WTS teaches.

    In practice the WTS only officially recognises the 13 or more men who are situated in Brooklyn as FDS. They do not take into consideration the input or opinions of any other members who profess anointing, although their theology states differently.

  • Leolaia

    Jared....Have you seen my thread identifying who the OT model of the "faithful and wise servant" is? The parable is clearly based on the figure of Joseph, who was Potiphar's servant and who was appointed first over Potiphar's household and then over all of Egypt in giving out food rations during the famine:

    Once you know of the original metaphor, the parable makes better sense. Like Egypt in the time of Joseph, the world was believed to be in a state of spiritual famine at the time Jesus came. This depends on the common Jewish apocalyptic belief that the time preceding the Messiah's arrival and/or divine judgment is an "age of iniquity". The use of sitometrion "rations of grain" in the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant is significant because it (1) recalls the famine of Joseph and (2) within the gospel "grain" is used to symbolize the word of the kingdom. Thus in the Parable of the Sower "the seed is the word of God" which, when it falls on good soil, that is, "a people with a noble and generous heart who have heard the word and take it to themselves and yield a harvest through their perseverence" (Luke 8:11-15). Paul also has a similar understanding where he says: "I did the planting, Apollos did the watering, but God made things grow" (1 Corinthians 3:6). The rations of grain that Jesus entrusts to his disciples is like the vineyard in the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman that the "landlord" leases to his tenants as "their inheritance" (Luke 20:9-16). Jesus is passing on to his disciples his teaching, his wisdom -- which in the synoptic gospels constitutes the Word -- and he expects his disciples to pass on the teaching, to plant it in new soil, and reap the benefits.

    This message in Luke and the other synoptics is not just the announcement that the kingdom of God has arrived but the moral teaching that Jesus gives, on how to treat others and how to live one's life for the kingdom. Thus, living in a wealthy lifestyle shuts one out of the kingdom while living charitably and in poverty guarantees one's place in the kingdom. This theme is especially prominent in Luke (cf. Luke 6:20-24, 12:13-34, 13:22-30, 16:19-31, 18:18-30). In fact, the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant in Luke 12:42-48 directly follows an admonishment to be "ready" for the kingdom (v. 35-40), to be already "dressed," which pertains to the way one lives one's life as described in the preceding verses:

    ?This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!... And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him" (Luke 12:29-36).

    Jesus' followers thus are commanded not only to spread the message of the kingdom but to also live it. One cannot be ready for the kingdom if one is living in a way that disqualifies himself from the kingdom. The faithful and wise servant is thus not a particular organization, a religious group per se, but to individuals who, by their own actions, are living faithfully and wisely who are to be rewarded with rewards of the kingdom. In just the same way that Joseph was promoted and rewarded on the basis of his own faith and wise course of action. Thus, in Luke 12:43, it is the actions of the faithful and wise servant that are emphasized, whereas in v. 45 it is the evil slave who does not do what his Master wants and abuses the menservants and maidservants. This focus on praxis is explicit in v. 47: ?That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows".

    One thing I'm not too clear on yet is whether the model of the faithful and wise servant applies to everyone who acts faithfully on the kingdom message or only to the "shepherds" of the flock who do so, e.g. the apostles, the presbyters, the bishops, etc. This distinction is itself raised by Peter's own question that elicits the parable in Luke 12:41: "Peter asked, 'Lord, are you telling this parable to us (e.g. the apostles) or to everyone?' " The act of "feeding" is specifically associated with pastoral oversight in John 21:15, 18 when Jesus instructs Peter to "feed my lambs", and Jude 12 refers to itinerant preachers (cf. the "apostles and prophets" of Didache 11:3-6) who "feed only themselves": that is, they claim to the leaders in the church but instead of tending the flock they only look after themselves. Jude 12 is alluding to Ezekiel 34:2-3 which indicts the shepherds (that is, the rulers) of Israel for feeding themselves instead of the sheep -- indeed they feast on the meat provided by the sheep. Like the metaphor in Ezekiel, the polemic is against those people in authority who fleece the church and make financial gain. This is the thought in the preceding verse which likens these pseudo-pastors to Balaam's greed (Jude 11, "they plunged into Balaam's error for profit") and Didache 11:10, 12 similarly states: "If any prophet teaches the truth, yet does not practice what he teaches, he is a false prophet....If anyone should say in the Spirit, 'Give me money,' or anything else, do not listen to him. But if he tells you to give on behalf of others who are in need, let no one judge him". This thought actually ties rather nicely to Luke 12, which criticizes those who look for material gain in this world and who do not practice what Jesus has taught them. Despite this, it is not entirely clear to me whether a pastoral interpretation is what is demanded by the parable. I get the impression that it pertains to anyone who is storing up treasures of the kingdom and who lives in accordance to the kingdom, and not just those with pastoral authority.

    The Society clearly endorses a pastoral interpretation of the parable, viewing it as indicating a division between Christians between the authoritative F&DS class (e.g. the de facto clergy of the Witnesses) and the "other sheep". However, this totally overlooks the focus of the parable on individual actions that wisely and faithfully anticipate the kingdom. We are judged by God as individuals on whether we do "what [our] Master wants" (Luke 12:47). There is no modern "organization" that the parable is identifying; the "servant" is all those (or all those with oversight) who live according to the kingdom promise. At the time Luke was written, this simply referred to the ideological "church" of followers of Christ. Now, almost two thousand years later, the Society applies the parable to the modern-day landscape of churches and denominations and sects of Christianity and assumes that only one of these (e.g. their own organization) must correspond to the "faithful servant". But the parable has no reference to a particular organization, only to those within the early church who -- in contrast to the "evil servant" co-existing with them -- did their Master's will. The sense of the parable would thus best apply to all who profess to follow Jesus and do his will, and it is entirely extraneous to the parable to claim that everyone who manifests themselves as the Joseph-like "faithful servant" is necessarily confined to one specific religious sect (i.e. the Witnesses) -- much less that within this sect it is restricted only to a tiny minority mostly born before 1935! Their interpretation of the parable is really a non sequitur in assuming a unique link to themselves when none exists in the actual text. Indeed, if the pastoral interpretation is to be insisted upon, one must ask how the Witnesses distinguish themselves from other religions in their taking care of the flock and their charitable works. Are there people in other Christian faiths who live more in accord with Luke 12:29-36? (duh -- )

    So when your father demands to know WHO, WHO, WHO is the faithful and wise servant is, think of the individual man Joseph and how he lived wisely and faithfully, and think of how Jesus' parable was intended not to identify a religious organization but to emphasize the difference between Christians who live according to "their Master's will" and those who profess to "know their Master's will" and even teach what their Master says but who "do not do what their Master wants". To know who, then, does the will, and thus who is the faithful and wise servant, one needs to review in the gospels what Jesus instructed his disciples to do, his moral teaching on how to live one's life, and especially how to live poorly in this present world so that one lives richly in the world to come. Considering how little emphasis the Society places on Jesus' moral teaching and how little of it is evidenced by the organization itself (examples come easily to mind), it should not be easy to show that the parable refers not to the Watchtower organization but to all Christians (or Christians with pastoral duties) who live in accordance to Jesus' words and care for others.

  • M.J.
    my dad says the roman orthodox church became the slave and so on and son on through luther and the prodestants and so on until today

    These people apparently went from being "God's Faithful Discreet Slave" or "God's People" to "Babylon the Great", even though their teachings are pretty much identical now to what they had been back then. Ask him why that changed. If he responds that "they failed to change when the light was revealed", then ask him how people such as the Christadelphians (who rejected Trinity, Hellfire, Immortal Soul, going to war), could suddenly be in league with Satan for failing to associate with a new group which engaged in pyramidology, spiritism, false prophecy, falls messages, etc. (cite examples)?

    To quote Robert Sullivan, "the security. It's something visible and something tangible. Some type of structure in their life. It tells them how to spend their time how and what to preach, their goals and purpose in life, and it's human nature for us to grasp at something like this; some kind of security; something visible that we can hold onto. In contrast, the Bible explains that we must walk by faith and not by sight. This faith is in Jesus Christ--not in any group of men or organization...In a short sighted way it's easier to let the organization make all the decisions for you. And this would be desireable if the men running the organization were perfect. But as Jeremiah and Solomon so accurately said, "it does not belong to man to direct his step. Man has dominated man to his injury." The history of the Watchtower organization is living proof of these words.

    Since the subject of "God's Organization" is at the forefront, perhaps you can direct him to some of the problems in this concept as presented in "Captives of a Concept". It explains how you can do this by going through the "Proclaimers" book with him.

  • FreeWilly

    Hi Jared,

    my dad says the roman orthodox church became the slave

    The Society claims that in the Parable of the "Wheat and the Weeds", Satan sows apostate "weeds" next to true Christianity. They cite the "great apostasy of Catholocism since it's inception in the 3rd century. Could the religion responsible for the "great apostacy" also be the "Slave"? Do some research on the "great Apostasy" and it should give you lots of ammo.

    Also, The "Faithful Slave" according to WT, is supposed to be the annointed remnant on Earth", meaning the 8500 annointed partakers listed in the annual report. Ask your Dad if these people really have input in the magazines or is it only limited to merely the Brooklyn writing Department? Did the "Faithful Slave" (i.e. 8500 old annointed ones around the Earth) know about the New Light of this "Generation", or did they read about it in the magazines like everyone else?

    It's a broken doctrine they don't even believe in.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    first off there are many who believe that Revelations was written before 70CE and may be regarding Nero as the beast and there is nothing to really show they are wrong.... one point made is that the fall of Jerusalem is completely absent in the story, which is odd since it would be a major fulfillment to hang future ones upon....

    second, Jesus said that ALL THINGS would happen in THIS GENERATION, not no future one... he was mistaken, making him a false prophet, end of story (^_^).

    3rdly there is no possible way that any mistakes in the bible will EVER be acknowledged by the faithful.

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