Did anyone watch the latest Frontline?

by eljefe 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    JT

    it is pretty simple, many times we like to make it into something hard to understand, but really it all boils down to what happens when a belief system kicks in and leaves it followers thinking that they got instructions from god

    as i told someone the other day, we are merely seeing the march of human history, typically folks go to war due to wanting to maintain their real estate or wanting to expand their real estate-

    but when you throw in a pinch of "God told us to do this" it gets very interesting-

    quick lesson in history-

    a few 1000's years ago, if you were a Hitite farming your land and minding your own business, all of a sudden you looked up on the horizen and what did you see, an approaching army- who when they got there declared YOU ARE LIVING ON OUR PROMISE LAND-

    now you got this pc of land from your great grand dad, but here are some dudes shouting Jehovah has given us this land - yes it was the jews turn to cause havick on folks lives

    fast forward a few 1000's yrs, my great great grand dad was chilling out in his Birth day suit in africa and when a group of dudes rolled up and announce "YOU ARE GETTING BAPTIZED OR DIE"

    yep it was the christians turn to cause havick on folks lives

    FAST FORWARD a few more 1000's yrs , like 9-11 --and we still got folks shouting out "To Allah we owe the victory"

    yep folks you and i sad to say happen to be living in a time when it is the Muslium turn to cause havick on folks lives-

    and in another 1000's there will be another group claiming that thier actions are Sanctioned by God himself

    "Different Pile - same Sh%^ "

    and that is the history lesson for today folks, be sure to read chapter 9 and we will have a quizz at the beginning of class next week

  • ColdRedRain
    ColdRedRain
    It'll be interesting to see what happens when they blow up the Eiffel Tower or The Lourve(sp).

    I can hear the cries for help already! You (Europe) didn't think they'd leave you alone did you? And of course, the bad ol USA WILL HELP, because it's the right thing to do!


    WHat a moronic comment.

    We'll wait and see what happens.

    Did you miss the major attack in Spain that killed about 200 people? The US is seen by Europe as expanding the problem of Islam extremism by invading Iraq which has upset Arabs all over the world as an attack on their sovereignty.

    And what did the Muslims think about 9/11 or the Cole bombing? It was greeted with little outrage. Hey, if they don't like white skinned (and a few dark skinned.) people coming on their land with guns, they should leave us the hell alone.

    If they were serious about ending the circle of violence, their mullahs would prosecute Osama Bin Laden, like how here, when we have prison abuse scandals, we prosecute our MP's.

    And this should be a clue. We haven't gotten bombed since 9/11 and we're scared stiff about terrorists. Europe sees our fear of terrorism as a joke. Chechneya anybody?

  • Poztate
    Poztate
    yep folks you and i sad to say happen to be living in a time when it is the Muslium turn to cause havick on folks lives-

    and in another 1000's there will be another group claiming that thier actions are Sanctioned by God himself

    I think the governments should turn on religions and destroy them...JUST KIDDING

  • Pole
    Pole
    We'll wait and see what happens.



    The comment was moronic in a few ways.

    First, what if I said the following: "It will be interesting to see the Empire State Building being blown up as a result of Bush's foreign policy in the ME. We'll see if Bush resorts to diplomatic measures then."

    Then it's stupid, because it ignores the already observed facts (Spanish withdrawal from the American occupation of Iraq as a result of the Al-Qaida attack in Madrid as opposed to the suggested cry for American help) and it focuses on (evil-spirited) wishful thinking.

    Finally it also seems to make use of the cliche of American protectionism which so many Hollywood productions are imbued with. Maybe I'm just oversensitive on the last point, but the first two remain valid.

    The "we'll wait and see what happens" attitude atually reminds me of frustrated Armageddon preachers which most of us used to be. Doesn't sound like worthwhile argument and it certainly shows little respect for the French posters here to say it'll be "interesting" to see the Louvre blown up just because they don't blindly follow Bush's highly controversial (to say the least) policy.


    Pole

  • wednesday
    wednesday

    JT, so nice "see" u again. Your history lesson was very simple and easy to understand.

  • jeanniebeanz
    jeanniebeanz

    There is certainly a lot of frustration being expressed, but is there actually anything that any one of us can do?

    I think a lot of us are just feeling useless to help and we watch the situation in Iraq unfold in personal tragedy repeated thousand times over.

    The poor Iraqi people are caught in the crosshairs, and so are our soldiers and those of our allies. I believe that Bush believed that there was sufficient reason to go to war given the first hand accounts of people who had been brutalized under Sadam's dictatorship and other intelligence?s he was receiving. And u/d is right in that it was not his decision alone but that of a group of advisers. If they screwed up, we should hold them all accountable, but we probably won't have that information for a number of years.

    Hindsight is 20/20, and Monday morning quarterbacking is seldom helpful. We'll be able to see what the mistakes were and guard against them in the future, I just want this war over as soon as possible, and the Iraqi people to be free to make their own decisions.

    Rambling, I know. Just my two cents.

    Jean

    Edited to add, thanks for the recap, JT.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    UpsideDown,

    I am beginning to think your Board handle is actually a description of your thought processes.

    I can hear the cries for help already! You (Europe) didn't think they'd leave you alone did you? And of course, the bad ol USA WILL HELP, because it's the right thing to do!

    It may have escaped your notice that the UK, Germany and France have been under terrorist attack from various quarters for over two decades and have handled the situation without resorting to the need to invade other countries on false premises.

    Sometimes the ignorance of some US citizens with regards to history and geography is absolutely stunning and could arguably be a component in the election of a President who seems to relish his ignorance of all things foreign.

    It certainly does not encourage confidence in the US education system.

    HS

  • eljefe
    eljefe

    I have seen so many opinions on this, and experts on each side discounting what the others are saying that it makes the head ache.

    I really haven't seen any experts say there isn't a problem. They only vary on how grave they think the problem is.

    Can someone summarize please?

    Radical muslims are creating terrorist cells in Europe. They have already tried to carry out many attacks including the train bombing in Spain. Many Muslim immigrants are coming to Europe. They can't find a job and turn back to religion and some find an extremist mosque/peope/iman.

    Who attacked who first?

    Depends on how far back you go in time. Some say the first act of terrorism was in Iran in the 1970's when a group of students took over the US embassy.

    What was the response?

    The US sent an ill fated Special Forces mission to free the hostages and had many problems. For years US foreign policy simply ignored a growing threat. This was up to and including the Clinton administration. After 9-11, things changed and these extremists were given more attention.

    How did that go?

    Just look around. There is a growing fundamentalist movement. It will keep on getting worse because it would be polically incorrect to target a certain group or religion.

    Finally, what in the blue blazes can someone like me do about it?

    Arm yourself and learn how to use those firearms in self-defense. In reality, there is nothing you can do. According to their fundamentalist beliefs, they can kill anyone who is not a Muslim without blinking an eye.

    Hope this helps Jean.

  • CoonDawg
    CoonDawg

    Can someone summarize please?

    Radical muslims are creating terrorist cells in Europe. They have already tried to carry out many attacks including the train bombing in Spain. Many Muslim immigrants are coming to Europe. They can't find a job and turn back to religion and some find an extremist mosque/peope/iman.


    Actually, I see it as more of a problem with shameless, power hungry men using hapless schleps who have a motivation to "serve god" into being footsoldiers for them. It's all about power and political gain. Does anyone here actually think that most of these men at the top are uninterested in the power that they weild? Fundamentalism in ANY form is a powderkeg waiting for a spark to set it off.

    Who attacked who first?

    This is a bit harder. The idea that the first were the students in 1980 in Iran is ludicrous. There were radicals before that, some even turning violent. Look at our own home-grown terrorists in the 1960's and 1970's. Look at the massacre of the Israli atheletes at Entebbe (sp?) Look at the rash of airline hijackings in the 1960's and 1970's ....and all this is just in recent history. Seems to me that 1700's Brittania looked at a few colonists chucking tea over the side of a ship in Boston Harbor as terrorists...since this was a direct attempt to disrupt the economy of the empire. In fact, they could be classed as terrorist insurgents because, as history documents, there were even incidents of terrible attrocities against British soldiers as well as civillian loyalists. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    The US sent an ill fated Special Forces mission to free the hostages and had many problems. For years US foreign policy simply ignored a growing threat. This was up to and including the Clinton administration. After 9-11, things changed and these extremists were given more attention.

    Each administration has had their way of dealing with this. Carter initiated his ill fated rescue attempt. Reagan negotiated with Iran...resulting in the release of the hostages a mere week after his inauguration as president in 1981, yet bombing the crap out of Quadaffi's residential compound in 1985 in retaliation for a terrorist attack on the Lockerbee plane. Bush 41 didn't really have a focus on terrorism,though he had served as the one of the cheif architechts of the Arms for Hostages deal with Iran...a declared "terrorist" state.. and we suffered no real attacks on that fron in his administration...Clinton...well, weeks after his inauguration, the USS Cole was bombed. This brought home the need for vigilance...so Clinton made Richard Clark the head of his anti-terrorism task force. Through this, the perpetrators of the first world trade center bombing were caugh, proscecuted, and punished. Clinton also did attempt a missile strike on Osama BinLaden, but missed as Bin Laden had moved to a location shortly before the cruise missiles came screaing in. Clinton's administration had become more vigilant than we'd been before...this combined with a lot of luck helped foil the millinium bomb plot on the Canadian border when a man on his way to LAX was detained and searceh...locating a large quantity of plastic explosives. The people around at the time of the Clinton administration also were lucky enough to catch a massive coordinated attack using planes as missils. As the outgoing administration, in 2000 during the transition of administrations, Sandy Berger and Richard Clark attempted to make it clear that they saw international islamic terrorism as the #1 securtiy threat to the US...but because it was someone associated with the Clinton's, this was disregarded. Instead our illustrious National Security Advisor, Dr. Condaleeza Rice, decided it to be more important to work on a missile defense system.

    So, we bombed the crap out of Afghanistan to corner this dude...but then, when we nearly had him, Rummy tells our boys "Okay....now stand down...we're going to hire the "Northern Alliance" to go in and ge him....so that doesn't work. What do we do? Oh, what the hey...let's just invade Iraq

    So what to do? Well, teaching tolerance and providing steps to reduce poverty are always a good start. People who have their basics and some meaning to their lives tend to be much more peaceable.

    Maybe we should start by renewing our efforts to "Capture dead or alive" and stop invading countries that haven't really provoked us.

    JMO, of course...

  • jeanniebeanz
    jeanniebeanz

    thanks, coon dog. Very interesting indeed.

    It got me thinking though, and another question popped up: even if we renewed the search for Osama, dead or alive, it seems from reports that the Iraqi people are so terrified of the radical fundamentalists that they are not willing to risk further endangerment of their families by turning over people that they know are close to him.

    At what point do the Iraqi people have to step up and kick these radical murderers out of their country? At what point does it become the Iraqi people's issue to deal with? Aren?t we just there to stabilize things so that they can get the chance to deal with it themselves?

    If you had your way, how would you proceed to withdraw from Iraq now that Saddam is in custody?

    Jean

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