'This Generation' (page 2)

pennycandy

My belief has been that the Bible is perfectly clear about the things that are important for us to understand. All the other things are up for interpretation. Personally, I don't think it's necessary to understand all the prophecies and riddles in the Bible, though many may have an intellectual curiosity.

The Bible is clear enough on the way I should live my life and the relationship I can have with God. Anything else is speculation, and my eventuality won't change just because I may know exactly what it is.

That being said, I think it's accepted by basic christianity that Christ began ruling when he ascended to heaven. During Jesus' entire ministry, his disciples were expecting his power to be on earth, and that he will be a very literal king, and bring about a new "system of things", so the questions they asked him were referring to when his kingdom would be established right there, before their eyes. They just never "got it" when Jesus kept telling them his kingdom wouldn't be of this world.

I also think it's accepted by basic christianity that he will come again. Different religions place that coming in different ways, but there doesn't seem to be any reason (except the JW's) to expect it to come in our day any more than any other time in history.

Jesus told us we don't know when it will be, and I can live with that.

JustTickledPink

Let me pose this question... how come more people don't expect some other guy from 2,000 years ago to rise and become King? Just because Jesus said he was the son of God and was going to become King doesn't make it true. You have to actually believe in what he says to think it holds water.

Personally I am waiting on some guy named Tom that died several thousand years ago to come back and be my Savior.

BluesBrother

For all my decades in the J W org we had a perfectly clear expectatio based on Jesus words at Matt ;24.34 and our belief that the "Last days " and Christ's invisible presence began in 1914. So the end had to come within the expected life span of a person old enough to be cognizant of the First World War.

In the nineties, nothing had yet happened. So they changed the belief. Very simple. If prophecies are about to fail you change the expectation, keep talking it up, and pretty soon they will forget the old belief anyway.

I never could buy the "New light" on the scripture, in fact I believe it sowed the seed for my later exit .

Of course the Bible has not changed. The scriptures never mention 1914. Please check out the many web refs to the assumptions and murky history of adopting and retaining that date as "Pivotal" to their beliefs

the Bible is OK, it is just the Watchtower that has led us astray

fairchild

Thank you all again for your time. I believe I do have some 'new light' which came to me last night while reading Matthew 24 once again, just before going to bed. However, I have to run out the door now for a 11 hour work shift, will be back to reply properly after work tonight.

Cheers.

fairchild

(pennycandy) My belief has been that the Bible is perfectly clear about the things that are important for us to understand. All the other things are up for interpretation. Personally, I don't think it's necessary to understand all the prophecies and riddles in the Bible, though many may have an intellectual curiosity.
That being said, I think it's accepted by basic christianity that Christ began ruling when he ascended to heaven. During Jesus' entire ministry, his disciples were expecting his power to be on earth, and that he will be a very literal king, and bring about a new "system of things", so the questions they asked him were referring to when his kingdom would be established right there, before their eyes. They just never "got it" when Jesus kept telling them his kingdom wouldn't be of this world.

I agree that the bible is clear about the things we really need to know. The only reason why the 1914 date is so important to me is because my belief in the WTS might stand or fall with it. And yes, there is also some pure curiosity involved.

You also gave me a view on 'the new system of things' I had never considered. Will have to give that a lot of thought. Thank you.

fairchild

(bluesbrother) I never could buy the "New light" on the scripture, in fact I believe it sowed the seed for my later exit

That's exactly what I'm afraid of.

garybuss

Fairchild, Did I send you the link for the book:
THREE WORLDS, AND THE HARVEST OF THIS WORLD (?)
It's at:
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Russell/3Worlds/3worlds.pdf

If I were you, I'd print it out and put in a binder and then read it with a highlighter. This is the book that shows where the date 1914 came from and how.

I can't emphasize how important this book is to a student of the Witness movement and especially a student of the generation idea applied to the date.

Please remember this book was published only three years after Jesus failed to return as specified in 1874. The date of 1874 was a replacement date for the failed date of 1844 that was a replacement date for the failed date of 1843.

This generation of 1914 is a historical doctrine. An important part of the history surrounding it is found in the book Three Worlds.

seattleniceguy

Hey fairchild - welcome to the board!

You said:

Since it seems totally unlikey that Jesus could have been wrong, don't we have to conclude then that there should indeed be a greater future fulfillment?

It might be a good idea to consider the basis for your underlying assumptions. When you're trying to get to the bottom of things, sometimes you need to get to the very bottom. Start with, "What do I know for sure?"

Just my two cents.

SNG

steve2

Talk about the very human tendency to complicate things. Surely when Jesus was speaking to his disciples and said, "This generation..." that is precisely what he meant. Pure and simple. It seems that when something is predicted (or, to be kinder, prophesised) and it doesn't happen, loyal followers start to read things into otherwise straightforward statements. Bad move. From there on, things become more and more and more complicated. The absolutely hardest thing for believers in Christ to accept is the simplicity of his message.

In a nutshell: "This generation meant Jesus's generation".

AlanF

fairchild said:

:: (Alan F) I think that the bottom line, fairchild, is that the things the NT records Jesus as saying about "the generation" are obviously applicable only to the people Jesus directly addressed, and that many of the things that Jesus expected simply did not happen. Many Christians know this perfectly well, and so, like the JWs, rationalize the failure by claiming that, because not everything Jesus said would occur occured in the 1st century, there must be a further and greater future fulfillment. Such rationalizations are common when prophecy fails

: How on earth can it be that many of the things that Jesus expected did not happen??

I have no idea, but the fact that they didn't is indisputable. The obvious conclusion is that, having made a bunch of false prophecies, Jesus was a false prophet.

: This just doesn't make sense to me. So, if 'this generation' ONLY entailed the generation living in Jesus' time, this means that we HAVE to conclude that Jesus was wrong, and that some of the things he expected didn't happen.

Exactly.

: Since it seems totally unlikey that Jesus could have been wrong,

Why? "By their fruits you will know them," right?

: don't we have to conclude then that there should indeed be a greater future fulfillment?

Nope.

: Matthew 24:3 confuses me. While he was sitting upon the mount of olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"

: According to that question, His presence and

You're using the incorrect Watchtower translation "presence" here. The proper translation of the Greek word "parousia" is not "presence", but "coming, arrival". All good Bible commentaries and lexicons show this. So, at the very least, this verse is consistent with your understanding that Jesus' coming and

: the conclusion of the system of things are tied together.

The WTS's separation of the events is entirely artificial, and based on C. T. Russell's misinterpretations that were in turn based on various rationalizations from Adventists as to why their many predictions had failed. All of them decided that Jesus' coming, having not been observed when they predicted, must have been invisible. Hence, the need to find a scriptural justification for an "invisible presence". Russell's teaching that Jesus had invisibly returned in 1874 was based on Nelson Barbour's failed predictions of Jesus' return in 1873 and 1874.

: Note that Jesus only gave one answer. He didn't say THIS will be the sign of my presence, and THAT will be the sign of the conclusion of this system of things. So, since He answered both questions with ONE answer, doesn't that mean that He considered His presence as well as the conclusion of the system of things to occur somewhat together, in the same period of time?

Most astute readers would so conclude.

: That takes me right back to where I started. If 'this generation' referred to the generation that was living back in His day, then the conclusion of the system of things did not occur as He had said it would, which again, does not make sense.

It makes perfect sense if you admit that Jesus was wrong.

However, there is a school of prophetic interpretation called preterism, which claims that everything Jesus predicted really did come true by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. You can certainly find material on that by doing some web searching. However, be warned that a number of ex-JWs I know have done so, only to find that preterism creates at least as many problems as it tries to solve.

: And then, where does Matthew 24:14 fit in?

Yet another of Jesus' false prophecies.

: I am SO lost.

I think that it's time for you to begin expanding your horizons and start researching and thinking outside the Christian box. Until you do, you simply have no idea how much information is out there waiting for you to grab it.

AlanF

'This Generation'

Share this