by VM44 26 Replies latest jw friends
I urge to use it and you will be wiser for it.
This is true. As Tergi is getting at above- the serious changes the translators make going from what the actual Greek says to what they wish to make it say are readily apparent in the KIT.
You will become wiser in how these men twist their translation to make it support their dogma.
I've made use of the KIT, diaglott, and other interlinears on numerous occasions. The KIT was helpful in a way that the others weren't by re-enforcing what I had already suspected about the word seismos in Matthew 24:7. All but the KIT translated the word as "earthquakes". Underneath the Greek word in the KIT was "[earth]quakes". In other words, the KIT, by enclosing the word "earth" in brackets, honestly called attention to the fact that the word "earth" is an unauthorized addition to the translation of the word seismos.
In other words, Jesus didn't include earthquakes as part of the "sign" that his disciples had inquired about in the 24th chapter of Matthew. Jesus said that there would be "shakings", not earthquakes. As to what he meant by "shakings", that's a discussion for another time. I must go to bed!
Friday
Good morning Friday,
Nice to see you have been spending more time with us the past week.
In other words, Jesus didn't include earthquakes as part of the "sign" that his disciples had inquired about in the 24th chapter of Matthew. Jesus said that there would be "shakings", not earthquakes.
That's an interesting comment. I checked 4 translations of the Bible and they all render the word earthquake in Matthew 24:7. I think in English we term these "shakings" as earthquakes to differentiate between he various shakings that occur and those we measure on the Richter scale. "Earth" is not a Greek word and what we know and is translated as Earth has several different meanings from soil, ground or the realm of mankind.
To say that Jesus meant shakings of an unknown kind as opposed to Earthquakes I suspect is a means to remove a rise in seismic (common English usage) activity from "the sign" that this period is the foretold end times. Afterall, if an increase in Earthquakes is a sign then these are not the times of the end of the age.
Regards,
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
I must be the "odd one out" for I used it often in my Witness career. And now? I still use it often, but perhaps for a different reason. Previously I thought I would be PROVING Watchtower doctrine but now I refer to it to DISPROVE the Watchtower teachings.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"So often, the unpolished
the disjointed
Is on its way to the truth
Ahead of the finished
the polished."
Ken Walsh, Sometimes I Weep
Friday,
I'll ask you about siesmos what I ask the JW's about Starous, If siesmos does NOT refer to earthquakes, what greek word IS commonly used for earthquakes? If starous does NOT mean cross, but only an upright stake, what greek word is used to indicate a "T" shaped "orture stake"?
Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
Yeru
Long time since we've exchanged blows. ;-)
If siesmos does NOT refer to earthquakes, what greek word IS commonly used for earthquakes?
Of course there is a word in Greek for “earth” (the Greek characters resembling our yn), and occurrences in which the earth ITSELF was the object affected by a seismos (shaking), it was even so specified. A case in point is Matthew 27:51, which according to the Revised Standard Version says: "...and the earth (yn) shook (seismos), and the rocks were split." Clearly, that which "shook" was indeed the earth. So, if Jesus had earthquakes in mind at Matthew 24:7 then why didn’t he make use of the Greek word for earth, using it in conjunction with the word that translates as “shaking”?
This, along with much more that I could say, makes it evident that the Greek word seismos, used by Jesus in Matthew 24:7, does not in itself mean “earthquakes”, nor does the context offer the slightest clue to lead us to such conclusion. So, Jesus did not include and foretell earthquakes as a feature of “the sign”. What he did say was: “…and there will be … shakings (seismos) in one place after another.” Therefore, “shakings” were to be among those events which, upon being observed, would alert and inform those anxiously awaiting Jesus’ return that such was close at hand, and that their “deliverance [was] getting near.” -- Luke 21:28; NWT.
Finally, since seismos simply means shakings, the question becomes: What is it that is due to shake? Of course, the clue is in the context itself. Had not Jesus’ discussion (starting with verse 7 of the 24th chapter of Matthew) revolved around such things as are common to man’s system and its governments. Certainly, nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom, food shortages, and pestilences (Luke’s} are all things linked with man’s system of self-rule. A parallel account to these prophecies of Jesus, recorded in the 6th chapter of Revelation in symbolic terms, verifies that these unprecedented problems would be the fate of man’s system just prior to Jesus’ return. As expected, in scrutinizing Revelation 6 the subject of earthquakes can’t be found -- only in verse 12 where in such instance the word seismos occurs, but which has been mistranslated “earthquake”. J. A. Seiss’ Revised Text became one exception to the rule by rendering seismos there as it properly should be rendered, namely “shaking”.
And so, it becomes quite apparent that what is to experience “shakings in one place after another” is none other than man’s system of self-government. Too, understanding what the “death-stroke” truly signifies -- due to come upon the 10-horned 7th head of the 7-headed beast of Revelation 13 -- nails man’s system as being the object of the “shakings” of which Jesus spoke. With the help of such enlightenment it becomes crystal clear that the seismos Jesus had in mind are those which man’s system is to suffer as a consequence of the concentrated influence of Satan (then earth-confined, Re 12:9, 12) upon earth’s inhabitants as he frantically uses every tool at his disposal, particularly the nations, in an attempt to thwart God’s advancing purpose for restoring his own rightful rule over the earth, which, since Adam’s rebellion, had been “delivered” (Luke 4:6) into Satan’s hands.
Yes, Yeru, the foundation of man’s worldwide system of self-rule is in for a “shaking -- even to the point of collapse* -- such being that which is pictured by the “death” of the beast of Revelation 13. I know that the principles I’ve alluded to here, Yeru, conflict with your idea that God approves of political involvement … but that’s just too bad for you is all I can say. You should get some eye salve.
*Such collapse, however, does not mean the immediate end of man’s system, since the “death-stroke got healed”. -- Revelation 13:3, 12, 14.
Friday
Friday ole pal, how ya been. Indeed too long since we've discussed ANYTHING. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm asking the question. You've answered it. Still, the phrase COULD still refer to Earth quakes. "The earth shook" is, at least in English, not always synonomous with earthquakes. "As the elephant walked by the earth shook", is different from saying, "There was an earthquake yesterday". Still, you make a valid arguement which I will investigate more.
P.S. care to take a stab at the Staruous issue?
Thanks
Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
Yeru
Still, the phrase COULD still refer to Earth quakes. "The earth shook" is, at least in English, not always synonomous with earthquakes. "As the elephant walked by the earth shook", is different from saying, "There was an earthquake yesterday".
You say "at least in English". Of course it must be remembered though that the thought was spoken in the Greek language. It would be nice if we were as familiar with the Greek as we are with the English. Apparently in Greek there was no word specifically to denote what we today commonly refer to as an earthquake. Of course you can appreciate that it's with regards to discussions such as this in which the Greek interlinears come in handy. I wouldn't won't to get caught without having one of some sort or another.
Many mistakenly think because the instrument that measures the intensity of earthquakes is called a seismograph, that the word seismos refers to earthquakes. The truth is, however, that in the Greek language seismos simply refers to the act of “shaking”, and that alone … having no reference to the thing being shaken insofar as identity … whatever the object might be. Matthew 8:24 is an example in which seismos obviously could not be rendered “earthquake”, forcing translators to comply strictly with the true meaning of the word. There we see that the “seismos” that “arose in the sea” was an “agitation” brought on by high “winds”. No thought, there, of such seismos being an earthquake.
It's no surprise, however, that the instrument that was invented to measure the intensity of an earthquake would be called a seismograph, because the silly thing does just that ... it measures the amount of shaking that is going on.
care to take a stab at the Staruous issue?
Friday
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Actually, I'd rate the Kingdom Interlinear Translation paper as a "pretty good" rolling paper. Low ash, but a little thick.
The old green "Make Sure," now THAT was some primo rolling stock. Very low ash. Maintained a good curvature. Tore straight and true when scissors weren't available. Thin as rolling paper should, and would if it could. Neutral taste. Negligible ink load. Stuck together along the seam acceptably. It was a humble little rolling paper when compared to a good Job's 1.5, but I was impressed with its presumption. Got all the way to "Mariolatry" before I broke down and purchased a nice brass one-toke.
Francoix
Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
Friday,
......the word "earth" is an unauthorized addition to the translation of the word seismos.
How do you account for the Vulgate?
