Do belief and logic have to be enemies? (page 3)

StinkyPantz

Stinky: By "Divine", I mean the higher calling that exists in each of us, our "conscience". I am not saying whether it was implanted by a Creator or not, just that it exists and does exert a force when listened to.

If "conscience" is all you mean by "Divine" then I don't understand the struggle you have. Conscience, to me, is an instinctual survival adaptation. Our conscience tends to tell us to do things that are in our physical or mental self-interest. Why wouldn't you believe in such a thing?

Edited to add that I haven't read this whole thread, only the initial post and your specific response to me. I guess I should go back and read all responses..

new light

If "conscience" is all you mean by "Divine" then I don't understand the struggle you have. Conscience, to me, is an instinctual survival adaptation. Our conscience tends to tell us to do things that are in our physical or mental self-interest. Why wouldn't you believe in such a thing?

I'm not sure if "conscience" was the best word to use here, because of it's popular connotation of being the "right-wrong program", but I do not have a better word. I was trying to describe the urge to be "holy", the opposite of the urge to eat, drink, and screw. The longing for purity and enlightenment.

Sunnygal41

The longing for purity and enlightenment.

NL, I think the reason that GPTSM's words made you feel good was that it is in these simple, calm activities that our peace can be found. I've gotten to the point in my life that the more I go with the flow of life and accept the ups and downs, the more I find joy and peace in simple things, the happier I am. For so many years I fought against what life gave me and I felt so frustrated...........now, I don't fight, I'm not frustrated, and I have found there is a magical balance that naturally just occurs............also, it helps me to be able to intuit what is right for me.........I'm not distracted anymore or caught up in the negative things...........now, just the color of the sky just before dusk, when the first star appears, as well as other natural occurances is like a spiritual experience.........and it fills me with joy and peace.

new light

Thanks Terri. I've personally seen you deal with life's "ups and downs" and I must say you are quite impressive. You manage to hold your head up high and dignified through some pretty sticky situations, making the words you said all the more meaningful.

JamesThomas

Perhaps it can be seen that beliefs and logic are two sides of the same coin; the north and south poles of the minds sphere of interpretation; a mental bubble in-which the mind dances and wrestles with itself.

Outside the bubble, when the mind is quiescent and still, when no logical interpretations or beliefs appear and there is no separate little identity to latch onto or protect -- what is here?

j

new light

JamesThomas: I realize now that "belief" is not the most accurate term for what I mean. I am really referring to the "Other", that non-describable consciousness that some refer to as God. I hadn't communed with this side of things for quite some time, being sick of it all due to the JW thing. When confronted with it this last weekend, my first reaction was fear (by the way I loved the thread Little Toe started). When I followed it in the past, it led to fasting, celibacy, in general a preoccupation with the other side, and I fear the same thing will happen again. Ultimately, I would like to have that deep sense of awe while retaining the creature comforts of a sense of humor and the love of a good woman.

BrendaCloutier

Absolutely, NL, balance is the key! And, as you've said before, you ARE a Gemini. Gemini's struggle with being balanced, I think, more than others......except maybe Pisces.........they also have that dualistic thing going on.........

Don't forget Libra - the scales. Kev is a quadruple libran! Ugh. Talk about being the devil's advocate while being the devil's advocate.

JamesThomas

NL,

Is it possible to step back and witness the mind creating grand dramas with it's preconceived ideas about what is or is not going to happen?

Can there be a stepping back enough, that it becomes apparent that there is the swift movement of the minds tragic comedy, and there is the conscious-awareness unmoving?

When attention is shifted from the drama, to the unmoving (that, which is closest and most intimate), where is concern for what may or may not happen, then?

j

zen nudist

one day it dawned on me that I had been comparing events and people in my life to something ideal... something unreal, but persistant within me, an alternative world which formed the foundations of my mind... and with that realization came the understanding that I had been brainwashed to accept this lie as more valuable than reality as I lived it... why do I say its a lie? because it has no foundations in reality as I experience it... it is from fantasy, imagination or an alternate world which has little bearing on this one....

it showed me that concept of an all knowing god who would KNOW what reality actually WAS but compare it to a fantasy ideal alternative was just silly.... and such a god would have to be insane, not divine.

I came to see the perfection of each moment by NOT comparing them to anything else....just accepting what I really lived.

BrendaCloutier

No, not at all. Church and science separated 500+/- years ago. The Church to prove god exists and use religions doctrine to control, and Science to prove god doesn't exist and to prove you don't need religions doctrine and the bible stories to know what really happened and what really is out there. Scientists of the age were either ridiculed, refuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, beaten, or executed.

Neither has proven anything they started out to. Science has progressed, and Church has not. What I believe we are beginning to see is the infancy of Church and Science coming back together. Possibly something the Buddhists monks have known all along....?

In my own search for a god of my understanding, through AA, I have come to the divine. The divine is not necessarily god. However, it is. Remember when you'd ask your mom or dad a question and they would answer "because". Well, that is the basis for my answer that the devine just is.

My own searching has lead me to god being more of an entity than a being. So far outside of our abilities as humans to comprehend. THE alpha and the omega and everthing, and then some, in between.

I have come to believe in Jesus-being. A being given the authority and responsibility of humans (any others for all I know) That's why he was born on earth and experienced what he had to experience, even the extreme agony he experienced in his death. To know what it was to be human so he-it could be our mediator and mentor.

THIS, i believe, is where the Divine comes from. God-entity does not care. The god-entity can be most closly glimpsed through science: Math being the language, and physics, etc. being god's laws. Unbreakable, but useable to us humans in the form of flight, atom splitting, light bending, etc. As uneducated as I am, I think it allows me this crossover of belief and logic.

I have had experiences, visions, dreams, and followups that cannot be explained except by the divine. I know things after these experiences that I should not know and have followed up with research to confirm my newly uncovered knowledge.

I believe in reincarnation. This is why I have uncovered knowledge of thinks I didn't previously "know". I believe I understand my soul-path. I have not gotten here (to this understanding) by any single set of doctrine or beliefs, as I have not studied any very deeply at all, except several flavors of Amerindian spirituality, which doesn't believe in reincarnation for the most part.

So, as will all things, take what you want and leave the rest until you're ready for it.

Hugs on your journey. It's exciting, startling, and sometimes mindblowing without chemicals!

Bren

Do belief and logic have to be enemies?

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