by Had Enough 15 Replies latest jw friends
id heard about this when it happened and havent investigated much further so i dont know about these other issues that are being masked under corporal discipline. but my initial response and i still hold to it is that dragging seven kids away, kicking and screaming, from their parents cannot possibly be good for anybody. isnt there a better way to approach this?
mox
Hawk,
Are you sure that CAS will not get involved when any type of corporal punishment is used? During my divorce from my jw ex, I had asked my lawyer to draft up an agreement regarding the upbringing of our young son. Part of my concern was the fact that my ex never, ever, spared the rod. My lawyer said that it was in my best interest not to include this in the agreement because of the fact that in Ontario, the use of physical force was against the law. He said the monent that she does this, and it can be proven, she would loose custody.
Mind you, my lawyer did not turn out to be the sharpest tool in the shed.
Regards,
68storm
Moxy,
You said
but my initial response and i still hold to it is that dragging seven kids away, kicking and screaming, from their parents cannot possibly be good for anybody. isnt there a better way to approach this?
I agree, this must have been very traumatic, to the children as well as the parents. God(figure of speach) help anyone who tries to take my kids. But I agree with taking the children from the home. It was a shock factor, that may open their eyes. The parents used shock to make the kids realize things did they not? Beeating their children, to change their opinions, instead of verbally discussing it with them.
My opinion on child rearing is, if beatings or even spankings is the only discipline a child gets, what is he learning? He is learning to succumb to the stronger person. You have not given the child any social skills at all. Ok perhaps these people talked to their children before or even after the beatings. Don't you think the same thing could have been accomplished without beating them?
All of us when we were younger do not know any different then what is taught to us, by parents, or outside sources. These children must feel like it is "ok" to be beat. They are used to this, it is normal. Here in the real world, this is not acceptable behavior. Someone needed to give these parents and other church member a reality check. And who better than an orginization who sole purpose is child welfare? My only hope is that some good does come out of this.
wendy
In a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
68,
Physical Force that is bigtime illegal.
What is legal is you can spank your child as long as you do not bruise the child. You may have heard of the ruling by a judge in SW Ontario on it.
As for who started telling me that there must be a better approach to the kids being removed screaming and kicking - yeah that is going to happen. The kids only know one thing - their parents and closed bible society. Kids adjust quickly unlike us adults so they have stopped screaming by now unlike the church.
This is a serious case and the CAS are not allowed to comment on the merits of the case in public. Thus, it allowed this stupid church to "spin" its side of the story out. Thus, the press picks up on the churches "optics" - ie. the use of the word "spanking" and the public and press don't really delve into the wacking with the stick issue.
Having been involved in a lot of cases in a different type of law (Note Maximus & bibleexaminer knows what I do) I bet I can tell you why you saw the kids screaming. First, Someone called CAS into this - likely a year to a few onths ago. CAS investigated and based on the Statute there were violations and immediate danger to children.
The family and church knew CAS and the police deptartment were coming and they called the press. The press came and videoed everything and then got to interview the minister, pastor or Spin dude who was "suddenly" on the scene. The press and public were setup beautifully by the church "spin"masters. I just hope and pray that the CAS sticks to their guns (ie. what the Statute and accompanying regulations say) and protect those kids.
hawk (seen "reality TV" one too many times)
When my grandson was about 3yrs his mother thrashed him so hard that he crashed against the table and all because he said oh God!out of frustration,my oldest daughter was there at the time and she came home to me and sobbed,i was heartbroken so i went to see my daughter-in-law and had words with her,she is a jw and a very controlling hard person i feel really sorry for my grandkids i know her dicipline is extremely hard,all this in the name of God.
QCA1
These are some of the scriptures that are used to convince JWs that it's fine to use corporal punishment on children:
"Bruising wounds are what scours away the bad; and strokes, the innermost parts of the
belly." (Prov. 20:30)"
"Do not hold back discipline from the mere boy. In case you beat him with the rod, he will not die. With the rod you yourself should beat him, that you may deliver his very soul from Sheol itself." (Prov. 23:13, 14)
"The one holding back his rod is hating his son, but the one loving him is he that does look for him with discipline."-Prov. 13:24.
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I am deleting all my editorial comment from the article; what follows is a bit of the testimony I received via email and message board when I mentioned the 'wooden spoon' routine so beloved of elderettes. It speaks volumes without any commentary:
"I don't have any really bad horror stories but I do remember being beaten with wooden spoons, ping pong paddles, switches cut from trees, rulers, yardsticks, bare hands, a fist once, and mainly a belt.
If they were not in a blind rage I was forced to pull down my pants so they could get a shot at my bare ass. Blind rages were horrible beatings as we(my brothers and me) were chased through the house while being beatin. More than once the weapon of choice was
broken on us."
***
OK, one editorial comment: this guy didn't think he had any horror stories! I cried when I read that...
***
"Yes, physical punishment was the norm in our house. My stepdad was supposedly "anointed" so of course he had to put on a real good show for the other "brothers" and "sisters" each meeting.I was always very good, quiet and still-never moved, took notes etc. etc. but my little brother just couldn’t be robot like enough for the jerk who was our
stepdad and got hit a lot. I remember one meeting my brother was sitting there as still as a statue only thing he seemed to be doing was blinking and breathing.Well the jerk took him outside during the meeting! I asked my brother who was about 12 or 13 at the time why
and he told me it was because he blinked too much!!! The jerk took him outside and beat him in the parking lot for blinking his eyes 40 times!!! "
***
"I was pregnant with my daughter at the time, and my son was 3 1/2.
Another new 'sister' had an 8 month old baby girl. They had to sit in
the library often, because the baby wouldn't be quiet (obviously). She wasn't screaming.. she was the most sunshine-y baby I've ever seen. She would babble and laugh and giggle and just be a cutey-pie the whole time. It would disrupt things, because everyone would be goo-gooing at her, of course! She was beautiful.
Well, anyway, the woman and man who studied with myself, and also this
other sister, told the mother (and me, since I was about to have a
baby), that it's better to train the baby to be quiet in Jehovah's
house, than to give in to her and sit in the back room. They said she
should sit in the main room and give the baby a smack when she makes
noise. EIGHT MONTHS OLD! SMACK HER FOR LAUGHING?"
***
"I knew a young family with a baby girl eight months old who needed a foot brace to correct a problem. The brace was a metal bar with special shoes attached at the right angle, and it was held to her body with straps. Her feet were held perfectly still on the bar
and the straps were pulled tight to keep it from shifting. It looked horrible, and it was obviously uncomfortable, because the baby cried and fussed a lot. One Sunday she cried more than usual and her father kept taking her into the restroom and smacking her thigh.
By the end of the meeting she had quite a red welt on her leg from all the smacking. I was in the restroom when her mother brought her in for a diaper change after the meeting, and when her mom took the wet dress and diaper off the baby there was a huge raw spot
where the strap had gotten under her t-shirt and rubbed a big patch of skin off. This guy was smacking her repeatedly for crying in genuine pain at the wound. Her mother looked at me with a stricken and really guilty expression and rushed through the rest of the
change and hustled the baby out the door and into the car in record time. The next Sunday it was business as usual, and baby got smacked several times for crying during the meeting."
***
"I cannot remember exactly when the beatings started, but I remember
hating the meetings because I knew it was where we went to get smacked.
I can remember as a little child, and I must have been under 6 because it was before I started school, being taken out and smacked for sleeping during a meeting.
Usually it was trousers and underpants down, bend over, and 3 smacks with an open hand. If we had been particularly bad, like drawing pictures in the Watchtower or something like that, it would not be the open hand but a shoe, or a belt. But always 3 times.
Another regular was if I talked with --- (my elder brother by 1 yr)
during a meeting we would both be taken out to the annexe to receive a
punishment which even now takes my breath away to think about it. My dad would grab my hair in his right fist and my brothers hair in his left fist and bang our heads together...again 3 times. The pain was excruciating, even after the 1st bang. I can remember seeing stars and the room spinning. I can also remember the swelling that would come up on my head.
I can also remember we always used to wear shorts, unless there was
bruising there when we would have to wear long trousers to cover the
bruising up.
It wasn't only my dad that dished this out, but my mother also. Her
favourite was to pull me up and down the stairs dragging me by the ear.
At times it was worse than others, but it never stopped.
I always dreaded my dad coming home from work, because that was when
my mum would tell him what we had done during the day. She rarely told
him we had been good, so it was usually a thrashing followed by being sent
to bed early. Occasionally mum would stop him if he went too far, others she would not. Other times she would be the one to go too far, but dad never stopped her. Mum if she went into a rage would grap anything at hand to hit us with. I remember having a wooden spoon broken over my head."
OK, that's enough. There is lots more, but I am getting nauseated so I know it's time to quit.
I wish any of the JW apologists here could be one of those little kids for a week or so.
As always,
MD
who knows the babies are still being terrorized
