Children Removed from Family over Discipline..

by Had Enough 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Hi folks:

    Just thought I'd post this newspaper article about an ongoing battle with a religious group that is quite prevelant in SW Ontario, Canada called The Church of God, a somewhat moderized mennonite group started in 1881.

    A family's 7 children have been taken away by the Children's Aid Society over the issue of spanking. This group upholds the bible's "spare the rod, spoil the child" rule to the point of using actual sticks, belts, switches etc and express that pain has to be felt to instill respect for discipline. This has caused quite an uproar in the town and surrounding area.

    In reading different statements made by church members and their pastor, about their beliefs on "corporal punishment" of spankings, I remember quite well the many times children were "spanked" with wooden spoons, belts or fly swatters by moms at the meetings and assemblies and wonder if this same government agency would react similarly.

    I truly recognize the need for discipline as I have seen many times the result or unruliness and rude behaviour in a child resulting from "no discipline", but also cringe when I remember sounds of a solid whacking and the wails of children from the bathroom stalls at the assemblies.

    Here's the link to one newspaper article on this event.

    http://www.fyilondon.com/cgi-bin/niveau2.cgi?s=societe&p=42123.html&a=1

    And the pastor's comments are '"It takes more than a slap on the butt to obey. There has to be pain. There will be a pain," Hildebrandt said yesterday in Aylmer.'

    Here's a link to some of his comments:
    http://www.fyilondon.com/cgi-bin/niveau2.cgi?s=societe&p=41788.html&a=1

    QUESTION: What do you think about this situation.... AND could JW parents' disciplinary methods possibly illicit a similar response from authorites?

    Had Enough

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Just thought I'd bring it up to the top again to see if anyone has a response to my question on, if this same reaction by authorities could be triggered by JW disciplinary methods for behavior at meetings. Just curious....

    Had Enough

  • Latte
    Latte

    Just noticed this post. For sure, there comes to mind certain one's where action should of been taken to prevent further 'abuse'. I shall get back to you on this one.

    Thanks for bringing this subject to light.

    Latte

  • Latte
    Latte

    Had Enough,

    Yes, I’ve often wondered what child specialist would think of the way in which JW children are disciplined.

    At an assembly one year, I overheard a child being spanked privately in the loo next to me. It upset me so much; it made me feel sick.

    The following year during my second pregnancy, on yet another visit to the loo ! I again, could not help overhearing a child being spanked. O.K I was hormonal, but why spank children where people can’t see you do it? Afterwards the child walked slowly behind the Mother, not speaking. The Mother still had clenched fists and was walking away briskly to meet up with another woman. The child left to wonder - she looked overly sad. I told the woman who was with her, that it really upset me, what she did to her daughter. I walked away as I honestly thought the other woman might throw a wobbler at me, if she new I had anything about it to say. (none of my business!) Yes! You guessed. Same woman. Same block off loo’s. Needless to say I never sat in that area again.

    I do think that people are becoming more aware of alternative ways of disciplining children. I also feel that I have seen less smacking in the Kingdom Hall which I attended. However, there are still the ones that feel it is there God given right to overdo it, if they see fit. I know a brother in the Hall I used to attend, that proudly stated after the Sunday meeting, that his hand was “ throbbing”after thrashing his waaay too young child throughout the Sunday meeting. I did not have any children at that time – I was disgusted at him. You should see his child now. It breaks my heart, he is so introvert. (he’s about 15 now) His Father, I really, really, do not like. Nor his Mother for allowing it!

    QUESTION: What do you think about this situation.... AND could JW parents' disciplinary methods possibly illicit a similar response from authorites?
    From what I have read, I think they have probably done the right thing. Hopefully, whilst the children are in care, they will be educated as to what IS ‘acceptable’ discipline. And NOT that Daddy has a God-given free hand/ belt/brush/anything!

    As regards JW’s meriting a similar response. I really don’t know. I think that the problem with parents abusing children in this area of discipline, is that they do it in private…….like taking them to the loo…….thinking no-one sees them doing it so no-one hears. Stupid.

    I would love Penelope Leach to visit an assembly one year, and let us have her observations. She is brilliant at suggesting alternative ways a disciplining. Parental skills are acquired – like most things in life - they have to be worked at. Yes, even for humble little me, it’s trial and error. It is’nt easy being a parent but you gottta keep trying everything. Thank you Penelope Leach. Thank you all the other ‘Good’ wordly books on child-rearing.

    Latte

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    here is some JW discussion on 'proper' discipline:
    "As for meetings, whatever you have to do so as not to disturb the meeting. Taking a child
    outside, or to the rest room or using the wooden spoon. (I always carried that spoon & it
    worked wonders! Then we graduated to the belt & that works wonders, even now at
    home!) But, that's also a personal decision on how we discipline our own kids."

    Another JW heard from:
    "
    Sometimes children need to be whacked for their own good. My children don't get
    whipped in meetings but know that if they don't behave they will get it on the bare
    backside with a switch when they get home. It is loving to discipline our children. Even
    Jehovah disciplines those he loves. If we don't get our kids into line they will soon be out
    of our control - that is why society is what it is like today."

    Jws can't believe ANYONE thinks their kidwhacking is indecent!
    As this one says, "I cannot BELIEVE people can think such things of Jehovah's Witnesses! People have their
    own ways of disciplining their own kids. If you feel that talking your way thru a problem
    & never hitting (even with a small child that doesn't even really talk yet) is going to work,
    so be it. But a wooden spoon works best on other kids. "To each his own", as they say. As
    for this nonsense of touting every piece of physical discipline as "child abuse", I can
    certainly say that is NOT a Bible teaching! If I was given a beatin' when I was growing
    up, I would have had more respect for authority & would have not been such a
    smart-aleck, as Mom always used to say."

    AS this JW mom says, 'to each his own,' even if that means using spoons on babies or belts on naked butts...

    "As for 'bashing' those of us who DO slap a
    little hand or use a wooden spoon to teach who is in authority in the family, it's best to
    just look at
    it as, "To each his own." Since there is nothing Scripturally WRONG with such discipline,
    then
    where's the argument??? There really isn't any. And as I mentioned before, the difference
    may be
    just a cultural one. Maybe some here never thought of it in that way. So, maybe we
    should think
    again, yes?)"

    It's just a CULTURAL difference, and it's in the BIBLE that we should whack 'em!

    And of course there is the psychological motivation available to good JW parents:

    "That was the picture of the babies being placed in the burning sacrifice to Baal,
    showing how evil those pagans were. When my kids misbehaved, I would show that
    to them, and it would straighten them right out. Also, the picture of the earth opening
    up at Armageddon and swallowing up the sinners was a great motivator for them."

    WHAT A GREAT MOTIVATOR!

    ****

    I collected these quotes from a JW parenting board a couple of years ago. (I also complained to their ISP, and RHW and some other women gave 'em pretty swift chase into the realm of the real over the issue on their board...they're a tad more careful about admitting to childbeating but I doubt we changed any minds, unfortunately...)
    I wrote an article on the subject but the issue is so emotionally charged for me that I felt the piece was irretrievably biased, and it has languished in my files since then. I find it impossible to evn pretend to objectivity about this. My personal experience, and the experiences I was offered by others, combined with these quotes from active JW elderettes (proving that 'beat and terrify the babies' is still de rigeur among upright Jdubs), led me to conclude that there is no way for me to objectively discuss this topic. It's just too close to my heart for me to be dispassionate.

    I won't post the 'experiences' portion of the article unless requested. I warn you, most of what I received is heartrending. The sickening quotes above are the tip of an enormous iceberg. Among JWs, child abuse is often found parading in discipline's clothes.

  • nelly136
    nelly136

    rings bells, am requesting the next installment MD
    nelly

  • mommy
    mommy

    I left my home at 16 after the most severe beating I had ever had, and I had plenty. It followed a meeting, I had made a comment about a conflict in the org teaching. I can't remember this now, but the brother on the platform was stumped, as well as the rest of the hall. When I got home, my dad showed me physically that I need to keep my questions to myself. I woke up the next day, with a black eye and a busted lip, various bruises all over, and sore as sin. At the time of the beating, my mom and oldest sister watched and actually encouraged him, because I would not admit I did anything wrong. All I did was ask a question. I was told I needed to apologize...I did not. I moved out, and lost my youth to hard work and trying to survive. Silly me, I spent two more years of my life in the org, trying to pretend it was the truth.

    There are countless times, I have seen children actually screaming, crying, sobbing, at the hall. People force their kids to sit there an be still for hours, and for some due to age, or even physical inabilities, this is impossible. There is no lee-way for these special cases, all children are treated the same. There are various forms of child abuse that goes on in the org, and beatings are just one of them. The children's self esteem is lowered by the requirements that are made of them, and they cannot fulfill.

    The most recent thing that turned my stomach, was when my mom was telling me of her new granddaughter. She is about 8 months old, and verbalizing sounds. My mom said it is hard for her at the meetings, it is almost as if "she knows" she isn't supposed to talk. But my sis has had to take her in the back several times, because she will not stop talking at the meeting!!!!! For J sake! This is a baby we are talking about, and will probably not be able to "quiet" herself for another year or so. It just made me sick to hear it, I do not want any details. I just cry for this poor child who wants to talk and should be able to.

    Had enough, thanks for bringing this topic up. I wish there was something that could be done, but I know better. The worldy views of child rearing even if pressured from authorities, will never have a place in the org. I feel that the org uses the parents to apply the physical pressure of staying in line, setting the child up to stay in line for the rest of their life. So sad.

    MommieD, Wow! Good on you and RHW even a little bit of pressure helps to quieten them. But as I said above, I don't think this will be a widespread trend. It will continue, just more quietly.
    wendy

    In a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    I have been following this in the press and on am radio shows. The press seems to have bought the churches "con" that the CAS took the kids away because of spanking. Its not till you get further into the boardcast or news report is there any mention of the "sticks" and "switches" and the causing of bruises.

    I saw the CBC national the other night. Allison Smith was talking about this demonstration in front of the court hose. Turned out to be a bunch of the church members - what a spin by the church.

    This has to stop. CAS allows spanking as long as it doesn't cause brusing. They only take the kids out when things are really going bad. I for one say right on and its about time. Little kids don't need to be wacked with sticks etc and that is what the press should be reporting ...

    Thanks for the news story had enough and take care.

    Hawk

  • Had Enough
    Had Enough

    Thanks all for your responses:

    I only have time right now to say a couple of things on this subject.

    I realize this is a difficult issue for some who have had some terrible experiences with this.

    hawkaw: I agree that the issue in the news has more to it than children being disciplined....they do promote the use of a switch, belt etc. and causing pain to get obediance. These groups do seem to have well-behaved children in public but I have to wonder if it isn't more of a cultural thing..."keeping free from the world" attitude that keeps them reserved in public.

    MommyDark and RHW...I laud you for your passion in setting a few avid discipliners straight. I recognize the pain a subject like this has for you, MD, and thank you for sharing what you did. If you feel it would do others some good to share more, I'll appreciate that but will understand if it is too painful right now.

    Mommy: What a horrible way for a young teenager to have to start out life. Your father sounds like my ex-husband elder who felt that forcing our kids into agreement with him was HIS right as HEAD of the house. It worked with my daughter but totally turned my son away from him and the org. And to expect to force a baby to stop making gurgling sounds during a meeting just is just too ridiculous! But how many parents succumb to doing this because a noisy child reflects badly on their being good JW parents.

    Latte: Your comments on alternative disciplinary methods ie: by Penelope Leach are good. I understand sometimes as a last resort a little whack on the behind may be needed but for the most part I like to see a gentler reasoning method and believe love does not come from pain and fear.

    The old sayings "this hurts me more than it will you" or "I'm only doing this because I love you" just doesn't make sense.

    Thanks all!!

    Had Enough

  • Latte
    Latte

    Thought I'd share this with you all...........she's just Great!

    That's Penelope Leach guys!

    Q: Give us some tips, if you would, on how parents can use positive discipline instead of spanking.
    A: The fact that you've spanked your children does not excommunicate you from this movement. We can all lose our cool, we all do things we wish we hadn't done. We have to try not to, but we have to forgive ourselves if we do.
    Spanking sets an example of violence -- an appallingly bad example. The parent who hits a child is kind of saying to that child, 'Take a tip from me, I'm bigger than you and when I want my own way this is how I get it.' Some parents don't realize how much kids learn from example. If there's a gap between what you say and what you do, they'll usually do what you do. ... All the research evidence shows that spanked children almost never remember the lesson you were trying to teach, they're too angry and upset to remember the lesson. They almost always say (their parent) was angry or 'I was naughty.' The rest goes over their heads.
    There's also a huge amount of evidence that physical punishments of all kinds do provoke aggression in children ... juvenile delinquency later. The thing that ought to concern parents of young kids doing the best they can is that punishing a child for doing wrong isn't really the way to teach them to do right. Positive discipline tries to show and tell kids what we'd like them to do, to praise them and reward them for what they've done right, rather than always waiting and scolding for what they've done wrong.
    It's a question of setting high expectations. You expect the children to be good and you're pleased when they do good. Don't sit and wait for them to break rules and then punish them for that.

    http://detnews.com/1999/features/9903/28/03260021.htm

    Latte

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit