Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason 175 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Jason

  Country Joe,

  I saw Jurassic Park 3 as well. I loved it but I don't think it should be used as a reference for real dinosaurs. I honestly doubt raptors were smarter than dolphins and could run 65 miles per hour. But it's Hollywood, they could make a panda into a vicious monster. It's already got the teeth and claws.

  The NIV translation "cypress wood" is incorrect. Other translations say "gopherwood." This type of wood is not known today. We don't know anything about it.

  Sorry, I didn't pay close enough attention to the cell phone to get the make. Besides, it was covered in dino dung most of the time. Or in the spinosaur.

  Macro-evolution: I define that as mutations occuring in an organism to cause it to become more complex over time eventually changing single celled organisms into hundreds of thousands of species of bugs, mammals, fish, birds, etc.

  I do not believe in macro-evolution, which is what evolution theory is based on. I do believe in the observed scientific fact of micro-evolution. Speciation through increased pressure to survive. Over hundreds or thousands of generations a horse kind can become zebras, donkeys, etc. This kind of evolution is observed in nature. This is horizontal evolution.

  Concerning creation. When God created matter the Bible says the earth was "without form." It was in a state of chaos. But God, being an intelligent being, turned chaos into order.

  When a star is made the entropy decreases for a short time. But as I said before, the end result is chaos.

  You asked if the was death before "the fall." No, supposedly there was not.
• 

  rem

  Jason,

  I'm not sure why you are trying to tackle Thermodynamics when you don't even have the facts of the flood legend straight yet. Every time you post something, even more ignorance spews onto the Internet.

  You said:

  Yes, this is true. But in the long run it will reverse. The crystals form as a result of decreased entropy but in the end the entropy will decrease all over again. It will not continue to become more complex over time.

  Duh – no one says that a particular organism will live forever and continue to be more complex, but if that organism happens to reproduce before it dies, then it’s progeny carry on where it left off. You get little pockets of low entropy being replaced by pockets of high entropy.

  Of course entropy will finally win in Billions of years and there will be no life whatsoever on Earth, no Sun, not even any elements (in trillions of trillions of trillions of years), but that is just the fact of Thermodynamics. As long as we have the sun, though, we are free to continue evolving as life on Earth has been for billions of years.

  This also is true. But eventually the entropy in all these systems decreases and the die and rot.

  I’m not sure what your point is here. I don’t believe anyone is saying that individual organisms or pockets of reduced entropy will last forever. Do you remember anyone saying that? Do you remember that I just said that our little pocket of reduced entropy called the solar system would lose the war to entropy in the future?

  If dead things don't become complex life forms then how did evolution begin? You said evolutionists don't expect dead things to become alive but what about primordial soup.

  Living things today have already evolved into highly specialized organisms. All of the parts of the organism have to work together for the organism to survive. These specialized parts cannot function on their own. The beginnings of life were not highly evolved like we see today. They were probably just self-reproducing molecules that we wouldn’t even call life today. Those types of parts no longer exist in living (and dead) things today.

  Did you realize that a dead animal or plant gives rise to a whole new world of reduced entropy? Microorganisms thrive off of decaying plant and animal matter. The dead animal turns into a small pocket of increased entropy for these microorganisms. In time entropy will win over this little pocket as well, and you know what the final result will be.

  Even if all the elements needed to create life were together in a puddle no amout of time would turn this into a living organism.

  Not time on it’s own, but energy from the Sun causes pockets of reduced entropy. It causes weather, which causes different forms of energy, such as lightening and so forth. If you had the needed elements to start life (not necessarily from existing life) together, energy (ultimately from the sun) can cause simple organic material to form (this has been observed in laboratory experiments). If this is possible, then it is possible for self-replicating molecules to form from the same process. Once you have self-replicating molecules, mutation and natural selection take over and you get what you find today – a planet filled with life. But only for a while (billions of years). In time entropy will increase as the sun dies and the energy source that is keeping the entropy in check goes away.

  The entropy of the soup would not increase because it would have no reason to.

  We have just seen how the energy source of the sun can decrease entropy on the Earth. This has been observed in laboratory experiments – and you see it all around you every day. If you put a plant in the basement without light, it will die. It needs energy from the Sun to live.

  Natural selection has nothing to do with making dead things live.

  This is correct (Wow!). Natural selection only cares about self-replicating molecules or organisms after they already exist. Why are you trying to argue about Abiogenesis instead of Evolution? Evolution is not concerned with these matters. For all anyone knows, God could have started it off. But if he did, we know for a fact that he used evolution to keep it going. Evolution and Abiogenesis are completely different theories – Evolution does not rely on Abiogenesis for it to be correct. Evolution is only the fact that plants and animals change over time. The Theory of Evolution deals with the mechanism for that observed change, i.e. Natural Selection.

  If you squash a mosquito you still have all the elements necessary to create a mosquito, almost in the right order too. But because of the chaos added to the mosquito by the act of squashing it, it is dead. And no matter how long you wait it will not live again.

  We have already dealt with this. See above.

  The point is is a living organism, or in the instance of chrystals as you mentioned, entropy will temporarily increase but the end result is chaos.

  And nobody is denying that. You certainly have some misconceptions about how Thermodynamics fits into the picture. You even have the Theories of Abiogenesis and Evolution confused! How can anyone take you seriously, you bearer of “Real Troof”?

  Rem (shaking his head)

  P.S. I suggest that after you do your Flood research, you pick up a few books and read what the Theory of Evolution is really about. Some that come to mind are “Blind Watchmaker”, “Climbing Mount Improbable”, and “Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins. “Darwin’s Ghost” by Steve Jones is very good too for an introduction to the subject. You might also want to read some books by Carl Sagan to hone your BS detector. “The Demon Haunted World” is an excellent book I’m sure you will enjoy.

  "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
  ..........Bertrand Russell
• 

  Country Joe

  Hey Jason,
  Does "supposedly" mean that you DO believe there was NO DEATH before the Fall of Adam?
  Presumming that you DO believe that supposition, lets see where we can go with that.
  BEFORE "The Fall" then, when Adam got the job of naming ALL the animals, everybody lived as one Big Happy Family?
  In other words, the Lions and Bears hung out with the Sheep and Goats eating grass and berries?
  Even T-Rex had a liking for bushes at this time and NEVER considered Brontosaurous ribs tartar for an late evening snack before racking out from a long day of eating those previously mentioned bushes?
  Interesting!
  How Idylic! Kinda like a JW version of the "New Earth" but with T-Rex and Company.
  I wonder if Rex and the other Raptors, and whatever else there was that had lots of teeth, will be invited to the "New Earth Ball and Barn Dance"
  Of course, they will have to go back to eating bushes.
  I wonder what they would think of this "New Earth" if everything was off limits except bushes.
  I reckon ONE thing we will STILL have in this "New Earth" is plenty of Animal, Dino and People POOP. Eh What?
  Then I suppose Flies and Dung Beetles will have to get invited to help clean up the mess.

  Where was I?
  Oh Yeah! One Big Happy Family! Right!
  Now Comes "The Fall"!
  And so does Death, crashing The "Big Fall" Party.
  And of course, all this was happening in the neighborhood of 6000 odd years ago, Right?
  OK! Now, 2000 years later, enter Noah and his infamous Ark.
  So then, in the span of 2000 years, "Horizontal Evolution" allowed the predatory animals to develop specialized teeth and claws designed for tearing flesh to shreds not to mention inventing some new enzymes designed for digesting all that meat and maybe even loosing a stomach or two that used to be used for digesting grass and bushes?

  Meanwhile, other animals and bugs are developing chemical defense systems such as posessed by Skunks and Bombadier Beetles and Tree Frogs?
  Not to mention all the methods and systems for hunting and defense that Marine critters can come up with?

  And within the span of ANOTHER 2000 years, they Evolved into an even GREATER array of diversification than those Prototype Species, that were on the Ark to "save space"?

  COOL!
  Of course 2000 and even 4000 years in perspective of Geological Time Spans is around the equivalent of a NANOSECOND.
  That "Horizontal Evolution" must of been REALLY Truckin, Eh What?

  Got another problem thats been bugging me.
  I don't see any references for Adam to name any "clean" and "unclean" animals.
  Skipping up to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 we find a list of animals designated as "clean" and "unclean", right?
  We even find in Lev. 11:27 that animals that walk on all fours that walk on their "PAWS" are also "unclean", like Bears, Cats and the Canine families and I suppose even Elephants and the Brachiasaurs like Brontasaurous, Right?
  OK! Jumping back to Gen.6:19 we see that TWO of everything is suppose to go on the Ark, Yes?
  But NOW, in Gen.7, all of a sudden and SEVEN DAYS before the rain starts up, we got Noah being told to take SEVEN of every kind of "CLEAN" animal, a male and its mate AND TWO of every king of "UNCLEAN" animal a male and its mate and also SEVEN of every kind of bird, male and female."

  Don't you think that is one HELL of an AFTERTHOUGHT with only SEVEN DAYS to go before the BIG EVENT?
  Note there was no mention of "clean" and "unclean" BIRDS until AFTER the Flood and Noah is seen in Gen.8:20 making an alter and "taking SOME, apparently Unlucky number SEVEN, of ALL the CLEAN animals and CLEAN BIRDS" and making one Hell of a BARBEQUE for "burn't offerings".
  Of Course, Deuteronomy 14:11 tells us which birds are "UNCLEAN", Right?
  So whats WRONG with this Picture, Jason?

  I can see the meat eaters getting in on the Big Barbeque and resultant leftovers, but surely after such a HUGE Flood, there won't be ANYTHING growing in the Plant and Trees departments for the Herbivores for quite a while, Eh What?

  What a drag for the Sacrificial VICTIM.
  Like one little ole bird ain't good enough for a Sacrifice?
  Noah has to barbeque EVERY ODD CLEAN animal in sight?

  Also seems to me that the Flood CAUSED a whole lot of INCREASED ENTROPY. In other words, there is NOT a whole lot of ORDER happening after a Flood, especially a Flood like Noah's Flood, Eh Jason?
  You see, a regular flood can reseed real quick cuz there is LOTS of EXISTING VEGETATION.
  What is going to RESEED the planet when EVERYTHING is DEAD Jason?
  And Last, but I suspect NOT Least!
  How LOW is the atmospheric OXYGEN LEVEL going to be with NO GREEN PLANTS?

  Fire is getting low. Time to burn this here Soapbox.
  Joe
• 

  Country Joe

  Hey Jason,
  In case you haven't already; READ Moxy's post on "Bristle Cone Pines" and the links supplied by Nic.
  Just read through a lot of it and a very interesting read.

  Moxy asks if the Bristlecones can survive a year underwater.

  Note that the OLDEST ONE, "Prometheus" was cut down in 1964 by some CLOWN named Donald R. Currey cuz his bore bit got stuck in the tree AFTER finding out from other samples that they were drilling into a 4000 year old tree and, supposedly, Prometheus was cut down with permission by yet an even More IDIOTIC Bureaucrat at the Forest Service Office.

  Presummed Conversation between D.Currey and U.S. Forest Service:
  
  D. Currey:
  "Say! I was drilling into a REALLY BIG Bristlecone Pine tree up on yonder ridge when my drill bit got stuck. According to some other samples we collected, it peers to be in the neighborhood of 4000 years old which is on a par with some Bristlecones in California. Well, Sir, this is my ONLY drill bit and its starting to get Mighty Chilly up there on the ridge and I got to head back to the University of North Carolina real soon so I can finish my Doctorate Thesis on Ice Age Glaciers. So would ya'll mind if I cut down this old tree so I can retrieve my drill bit and head back home?

  U.S. Forest Service Moron:
  "Yeah Sure! Go Ahead! No Promlem! Be Careful up there! Did you sign our Guest Book?"

  D. Currey:
  "OK! Thanks! Yes I did! See Ya Later!"

  Naturally, Prometheus turned out to be 4950 years old and HAD the distinction of being the OLDEST LIVING THING on the planet.

  Back to the original question:
  Could "Promethius" and its relatives like Methusala etc. survive being underwater for a year?

  Given the criteria that Bristlecones seem to ENJOY Life under, in other words:

  Dry Climate: 10" to 12" of precipitation annually most from winter snow. They thrive on a LACK of water and are genetically engineered to live that way.

  Poor Soil: They seem to like Dolomite, an alkaline calcarous substrate of LOW NUTRIENT.
  In other words, They grow in places almost NOTHING ELSE wants to.
  Other pine species will grow AROUND the Dolomite formations, but only Bristlecone will grow IN IT.

  High Altitude: they like it up high around 11,000' elevation or so.
  Of course that still leaves about 18,000 feet of water ABOVE that IF you believe the Flood was above Mt. Everest.
  So what is the water pressure at 18,000 ft of depth? I tend to think that alone would KILL EVERYTHING that was NOT designed to be at that depth.

  Other Factors to consider:
  They have a SHALLOW root system that is EASILY damaged by impact and EROSION.
  So WHAT would FLOOD WATER do to the roots as it drained off, presuming a flood that would even reach the 11,000 foot level?

  Recovery from soil disturbance is VERY SLOW.
  Do Flood waters at any time EVER disturb ANY soil?

  Therefore we can surmise that this ONE TREE ALONE at 4950 years of age SURPASSED the biblical flood and yet SURVIVED.

  Now, WHAT does that say about the Biblical Flood?

  Thanks Moxy and Nic(and anyone else) for contributing info.

  Joe
• 

  Jason

  Rem,

  I'm not talking about anything living forever so quit bringing it up. I'm saying that because of the law of entropy evolution macro-evolution cannot occur. Things do not become MORE complex.

  These lab experiments you talked about. Could you please specify which experiments and how they were performed. And the sun doesn't decrease entropy in anything that is not already alive. We do not observe this in everyday life. The energy of the sun causes more chaos. Life does not form from a puddle of goo no matter what is in the puddle or how much lightning strikes it. Life comes from life.

  I suppose you believe in the big bang as well. We may as well start there since it is the foundation for evolution. Can anyone explain how the universe exploded from nowhere? Thermodynamics prove that matter is not eternal and doesn't last forever, as you said, so there was a time when there was no matter. Where did this matter come from?

  Jason.
• 

  Country Joe

  Hey Jason,
  Just checking in to see how you are doing with your research on the Flood with the evidence we gave you.
  In your last post to REM, you were still tripping on ENTROPY.
  So what did you think of the Bristlecone Pine?
  Pretty COOL, Eh What?
  Who woulda guessed there was something alive on the planet for almost 5000 years.
  Does it tend to mess with your head since you take bible chronology and stories so LITERALLY?
  Do you think that Dendrochronology just another Pseudo-Science?
  Do you suppose these guys sitting around counting tree rings all day are just wasting their time?
  I've been interested in Dendrology for years and had heard of the Bristlecone Pine before, but Folks like you and the JWs with your whole Young Earth Creation trip is fairly new to me.
  So, imagine my surprise when some Folks beat on my door all dandied up in their Sunday Go To Meetins and informed me of the fact that Adam and Eve were created only a paltry 6000 years ago, and in fact, even had some sort of big Birthday Bash for them around 1975, and Noah's Flood was only another paltry 2000 or so years after that.
  Really? I says. How do you figure that?
  They say! Why, it says so right here in this here Bible we got and are going to give you a free copy so you can read it for yourself along with some other FREE literature that will make it all Crystal Clear for you just in case you don't understand something, and if you want, we will even be happy to hook you up with a free bible study with some folks especially trained to teach the bible to folks like you that don't know nothing.
  So I says, Thats cool and all but I got me a bible around here somewhere.
  But then they say, OH NO! You don't want to use YOUR Bible cuz its all full of errors. You'll be wanting OUR Bible cuz we fixed all those errors and its the only bible on the planet that has it all right.
  OH Yeah? I says. Well, Just before you guys got here, these other guys came around all dandied up looking real sharp and pretty much like ya'll and they gave me this ole book that they say is the key to my Salvation. About some guy named Moroni. Ever read that one?
  OH NO! They say. You don't want to read THAT ONE. That one will get you KILLED.
  WOW! Really? I says. Might be a good idea not to read it then, EH What? But, How do I know reading YOUR hand outs won't get me killed either?
  Well, they say, It just can't! cuz Jehova is ALL loving and mercifull and loves you dearly and He wants us to help Save you.
  OK! But you just got done saying that this Jehova feller killed off the ENTIRE planet only 2000 years after making Adam and Eve except for 8 folks and a bunch of animals which was only 4000 years ago? Now, That don't sound terribly loving to me.
  Right! they say. Jehova don't like wicked people and they were ALL wicked except for Noah.
  Hmmmm! I says. Sounds to me like they were just doing regular stuff like eating, drinking and getting married. And there ain't a whole lot of wicked Little Kids. How come THEY weren't on the Ark.
  Well, they say. Thats what the bible says so it MUST BE TRUE.
  Well, I says. Theres this old tree out west somewhere called the Bristlecone Pine that was 4950 years old when some Idiot cut it down back in 1964. So, are you NOW saying that this Jehovie feller kilt off EVERYTHING on the planet EXCEPT 8 folks a bunch of animals and ONE TREE?
  Well! they say. We got to go now. But we'll come back later to see how you liked our FREE literature and we'll give you a whole bunch more so ALL your questions will be answered and hopefully you will see that we are the NEW ARK and you better hurray up and READ it all so that YOU too can get On Board so that you will be Saved just like Noah when the END comes which is just about any day now.
  So, I says, Are there any animals on this NEW ARK of yours?
  UHHHHHHH! They say. NO! Just people.
  You mean I can't bring my dogs?
  UHHHHHHH! NO!
  Then why would I want to get on YOUR Ark, I says. Maybe I'll just make my own.
  We REALLY got to go now. BYE!
  OKAY! BYE Bye!

  Bye Jason!
  Joe