Mainstreaming and the Greatest Mystery

by metatron 23 Replies latest jw friends

metatron

Moxy, better you should be right instead of me.
I think the subject of suicide by Witnesses is being
covered up, just like the child abuse issue.
Talk to Maximus, he knows of two tragedies.
metatron
logical

Hi there MDS.
You STILL seem to be forgetting one thing... one person...
If there ever was a time to "search the scriptures," ... it would be now! And all JWs, should be thinking as you are, and searching for answers.
John 5:39: "YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me."
Notice how Jesus is talking about HIMSELF. NOT you.
Take care MDS. Hope things work out for you, the way Jah planned it and not the way you planned it.
Nicodemus

Metatron,
You ask some extremely good questions. And I hope that your final thought doesn’t come to pass, at least not to a great degree.
Perhaps the “good” thing for those who are in denial is that they tend to stay in denial. And those that are thinking are already, and have been, doing so.
What do I mean by “good?” Specifically, that I am convinced that, should a Dateline program such as the one that we’ve been hearing about from ‘Silentlambs’ come to pass, there is a contingent that will pass it off as simply one more attempt of Satan to malign the organization. They will just withdraw deeper into their strange shell of certainty/denial, certain that everything is just fine in the organization, and denying that anything could be genuinely wrong.
I say that because I see it all the time. For example; brothers who, when questioned about the accuracy of the 607 BCE date, use circular logic to defend it. Their logic essentially runs as follows:
1. The ‘time of the end’ began in 1914.
2. Counting back 2,520 years brings us to 607 BCE.
3. Therefore, 607 BCE must mark the start of the ‘Gentile Times’
They’ve completely lost sight of the fact that the reasoning is actually supposed to be the other way around. Namely, that without the crucial starting point of 607 BCE being solid, the entire 1914 thing is based on a false premise. Yet, when confronted with the fact that the actual evidence in favor of 607 BCE is, at best, weak, I have actually had brothers explain a continuing belief in 607 using the logic outlined above. They simply can’t, or won’t, accept the possibility that we could actually be wrong. Perhaps there is a form of “psychological safety” in that.
On the other hand, there are certain ones still active in the organization that have, I believe, already come to the conclusion that many of our beliefs simply can’t stand up to scrutiny. They remain Jehovah’s Witnesses for a variety of reasons. Perhaps it’s family. Or, possibly they feel there is genuine good in the organization, and they choose to continue association, while recognizing and acknowledging flaws.
I do think, though, that future events will give rise to a need for “healers” in the organization, individuals who can help their brothers come to grips with doubt and uncertainty when it arises. However, I don’t think we have nearly as many as we’re going to need. Why should we? What about our culture encourages such?
philo

Metatron, I've enjoyed reading all your posts on Mainstreaming very much. After having read your obseravtions, I would like to see a tower defender try to represent it as gradual enlightenment or progress!
Thank you.
Philo
Moxy

meta: oh, im not saying that suicide is not a problem, i also am personally familiar with it. however, i got the impression that you were speculating about a sweeping tide of suicides as cognitive dissonance deepens or even shatters in some kind of future scandal. its this dark view of JW future that i was talking about.
mox
metatron

Nicodemus, you are always articulate and caring.
This is a difficult point. What happens to the 'loyal'?
To survive, they must deny, deny, deny. They must close
their eyes and downshift their thinking to a three year
old's level. I know a 30ish Bethelite - nice guy and
intelligent - ask him anything pointed and the answer
sounds like kindergarden. All good is from Jehovah,
All problems from Satan, how can anyone do that?
What happens to these people? I don't know.
I suspect they may 'crack up' all of a sudden,
without even knowing why. I believe people have
a sub-conscious -- and a "higher self". If the conscious
mind keeps pushing, eventually the mind and body break.
I believe this is partly why so many Witnesses are
depressed and suffer from strange chronic diseases.
I was a keen observer of the multiple personality
disorder fad in the organization (and the quack therapy
that came with it). I think it happened because of
emotional desperation - people trying to escape the
constraints of nihilistic Witness life.
I'm afraid more weirdness is coming....
metatron
Nicodemus

Metatron,
Here’s another conundrum of our belief I’ve always found puzzling.
When we make mistakes, and things go wrong in our lives, we are taught that we are not to blame God. We acknowledge that we are responsible for the mistake, and any hardships caused:
w92 11/15 15 Jehovah Is Not to Blame
8 Blaming Jehovah God for the hardships that our mistakes bring upon us is unwise and dangerous. Doing so can even cost us our very life. . . .If we encounter hardships because our actions are unwise, we can draw comfort from the knowledge that Jehovah understands our weaknesses better than we do and will deliver us from our plight if we give him exclusive devotion. We should appreciate the divine help we receive, never blaming God for the predicaments and difficulties we bring upon ourselves.{/quote]
No problem, so far. Taking responsibility for our own actions is a good thing, whereas failure to do so, and deflecting blame, ultimately has bad consequences.
But what about the flip side? What if an individual achieves something, through his or her talent, hard work, and ability?
[quote]w94 9/1 21 Beware of Boasting
Even if a person is unusually talented in a particular area, does this justify bragging? No, because bragging glorifies humans, whereas any talents we have come from God. He should receive the glory. Why should we receive credit for something we were born with?
This is not a really big deal to me, but I do find it fascinating. We are taught that we are personally responsible for our failures, but not equally responsible for our successes. Wouldn’t this lead to the low self-esteem that some of our brothers seem to have? And, doesn’t it denigrate the value of hard work and personal talent?
Nicodemus

Metatron,
Here’s another conundrum of our belief I’ve always found puzzling.
When we make mistakes, and things go wrong in our lives, we are taught that we are not to blame God. We acknowledge that we are responsible for the mistake, and any hardships caused:
w92 11/15 15 Jehovah Is Not to Blame
8 Blaming Jehovah God for the hardships that our mistakes bring upon us is unwise and dangerous. Doing so can even cost us our very life. . . .If we encounter hardships because our actions are unwise, we can draw comfort from the knowledge that Jehovah understands our weaknesses better than we do and will deliver us from our plight if we give him exclusive devotion. We should appreciate the divine help we receive, never blaming God for the predicaments and difficulties we bring upon ourselves.
No problem, so far. Taking responsibility for our own actions is a good thing, whereas failure to do so, and deflecting blame, ultimately has bad consequences.
But what about the flip side? What if an individual achieves something, through his or her talent, hard work, and ability?
w94 9/1 21 Beware of Boasting
Even if a person is unusually talented in a particular area, does this justify bragging? No, because bragging glorifies humans, whereas any talents we have come from God. He should receive the glory. Why should we receive credit for something we were born with?
This is not a really big deal to me, but I do find it fascinating. We are taught that we are personally responsible for our failures, but not equally responsible for our successes. Wouldn’t this lead to the low self-esteem that some of our brothers seem to have? And, doesn’t it denigrate the value of hard work and personal talent?
patio34

Metraton, Copernicus, and Waiting,
This is re the 'dumbing down' of the WTBS and writing in general today compared to the past.
I do agree with your statements, but feel there is another aspect to this subject.
There is far more information available now than ever. E.g., I'm reading 'Time Before History' by Colin Tudge (VERY good). It's probably not written at too high of a reading level, but it does convey a lot of information. It's about evolution, the age of the earth, periods of dinosaurs, atmosphere,--well it could be at a higher reading level!
BUT, it is a very understandable book and the terms are explained. Had he used multi-syllabic unfamiliar words, fewer people would be able to obtain the info.
The KNOWLEDGE the book imparts enhances one's education, even if it's at a lower grade level. It's the content, not the choice of words. It's not necessary to write at a high grade level to convey much information.
As far as the WTBS's article, my theory is:
1. A researcher reads a current book (as I'm doing) on history, science, whatever.
2. S(he) (in the WT case, most probably HE) presents interesting tidbits from book and a synopsis of it
3. The writing staff does articles, putting a biblical spin on it, ending with a ubiquitous 'God-will-solve-this-soon.'
Most of the Awake articles seemed to be of that type, usually citing the book used as the springboard.
But how do their people stay JWs reading these books? For me, the books always undermine fundy beliefs.
My new way is to simply read the books myself, enjoy life, and skip all the harmful propaganda spun by the WTBS.
For what it's worth,
Pat
Maximus

:: 1. A researcher reads a current book (as I'm doing) on history, science, whatever.
No, it's more like clipping newspaper articles and general gleaning.
:: 2. S(he) (in the WT case, most probably HE) presents interesting tidbits from book and a synopsis of it
Again, they don't read books on or off-campus.
:: 3. The writing staff does articles, putting a biblical spin on it, ending with a ubiquitous 'God-will-solve-this-soon.'
Yup. They generally start with the general idea they want to put out, then some quotations--what's a "researcher" for if not to supply quotations. That's how a quotation completely out of context can get in an article, because neither the writer nor the researcher has ever read the original! They are simply looking for words that apparently buttress their case. Awfully shallow. Metatron's post discusses the cut and paste technique.
Sometimes they actually take a quotation and purposely misuse it for very specific reasons. A recent one is about to backfire on them in large measure!
Thanks for the opportunity to make that point in this thread. Just wanted to disabuse the notion that Writing actually reads books.
Ain't it great to be able to use the mind God gave us?
Max

Mainstreaming and the Greatest Mystery

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