Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope

by philo 57 Replies latest jw friends

  • alex
    alex

    At the top of the food chain in Mormonism are the Mormon Apostles. You can see their pictures at
    http://www.lds.org/media2/resources/photos/0,5722,711-1-381,FF.html and there are 15 of them. The faithful members of the Church recognize these men as prophets, seers and revelators and God's official spokesmen on the earth. The only one of them authorized to speak on behalf of the whole Church is the President of the Church who is the only one is generally regarded as the "Prophet". The system is based on seniority so when the President of the Church dies automatically the senior Apostle becomes the head of the Church (well they say Christ is the head of the Church). This is why the Mormon Church President is usually a very old man. On March 28, 1975 Church President #12 Spencer W. Kimball turned 80 and ever since then the Church President has been older than 80. The last President of the Church to die was Howard Hunter in March 1995 and the senior Apostle Gordon Hinckley (ordained an Apostle in 1961 and born in 1910) was then ordained by the rest of the Apostles to be Church President and he selected the #2 Apostle Thomas Monson as a Counselor and another Apostle James Faust as the 2nd Counselor. This left 11 Apostles in the Quorum of the Twelve and at the next Church General Conference (held every 6 months in April and October) the President of the Church announced the call of an additional Apostle named Henry Eyring. If Henry Eyring outlives all of the other 14 Apostles then he'll become President of the Church unless he gets excommunicated for getting caught for adultery, apostasy or something like that.

    Below the Apostles are two groups of authorities. (1) The Presiding Bishopric which is 3 men who oversee the general church departments for non-spiritual matters and all the Church's billions of dollars of investments. (2) The Presidency of the Seventies which is 7 men who oversee certain spiritual matter committees and the 29 worldwide area presidency offices which manage the Church operations on a regional basis. Each area is presided over by 3 full-time members of the Seventy who then preside over about 5-10 Seventies who are part-time volunteers and oftentime well-respected business leaders. Most of the part-time Seventies are multimillionares and I know that at least one of them is a billionare.

    Locally the Church is organized in congregations called Wards (250+ members) and Branches (under 250 members). A group of 6-12 Wards/Branches are organized into what is know as Stakes. Wards and Stakes are each presided over by 3 part-time volunteers known as Stake Presidencies (for Stakes), Bishoprics (for Wards) and Branch Presidencies (for Branches). Throughout the world there are about 2500 Stakes and each Stake usually has about 3000-4000 members.

    In Utah where about 12% of the 11 million members live about 60-70% of the members attend at least one meeting a month. Outside Utah it varies from 10-50% since there is alot less social pressure. But nobody knows for sure outside the top hierarchy what the numbers are because the Church refuses to publish these figures. However some leaks have occurred but they generally aren't tolerated and do result in excommunication to any Church employee who would dare leak such sacred data. Nobody outside the top hierarchy gets any financial numbers either since the Brethren consider it to be too sacred and members need to be more worried about obeying the prophets, paying tithing, doing missionary work, etc.

    Obeying leaders is an important part of the Mormon psychic. They are God's representatives PERIOD. Anyone who questions this is obviously not living the commandments and an apostate so they can't see straight anyway. Mormons love to make fun of apostates but in specific they really feel sorry for loved ones who apostasize and they rarely give up on them.

    The typical man who gets to be a Mormon Apostle is one who is about 55 to 65 years old and has proven throughout his lifetime that he is completely dedicated to the cause, he's happily married, has good people skills, has good managerial skills, was successful in his career, served a mission, had several children and they are all active in the Church, had decent health, served well with distinction in various Church callings up the food chain such as Bishop, Stake President, Mission President, Seventy/Area President and usually as a member of the Presidency of the Seventy or Presiding Bishopric. Then this man lives another 20-40 years and travels around the world with his wife all the time speaking at weekly firesides where 2000-10000 attend and they also get to meet lots of VIPs and get lots of respect everywhere. They also meet each Thursday morning in the Mormon Salt Lake temple with the other 14 Apostles to plan long-term Church policy and give general guidance to the Presiding Bishopric and Presidency of the Seventy who do the actual day-to-day operations of all the Church functions. We're told that the decisions of the Apostles are always unaminous but since their meetings are held in secret we can't be sure how unaminous it really is but no Apostle in his right mind would risk his position, perks and prestige by denying this myth and all the other myths so the aura of authority continues to perpetuate.

    Members are told that if they ever have specific doctrinal or historical issues with the Church that they should go see their local leaders. The local leaders aren't given any guidance on the difficult issues from the Apostles except to tell the members to read the scriptures (by seeking the spirit -- not with critical thinking) and pray. The idea is that members who have issues really have some deep hidden sin or just are plainly rebelling against God because they don't have humility. When I shared my concerns with my Stake President his response was that I needed to have more faith, pray and seek the Spirit and then everything would be just fine.

    Whenever a member is apostate the disciplinary councils are held by the Bishopric and sometimes by the Stake Presidency. The Seventies and Apostles never do the dirty work in these cases. They seem to try very hard to maintain the image of respectability and admiration for the members.

    The biggest myth of all is that the Apostles talk to God face-to-face. In reality they receive "revelation" by good feelings in their heart and avoid any statements that could be interpreted as being official doctrine. So the whole religion is slowly getting more confusing all the time to the true believers.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Hi Susan. Thanks for all the info. I sure didn't mean to come off as being harsh about it all. I am just really burned on religion, and see many similarities with Mormons and JW's.

    I would likely have acted the same if I owned a business and staffed it mainly with JW's, while I was one. The non dub would have been suspected everytime there was a problem, and I understand that. But, I got sick of it, because I knew I was innocent, and shouldn't be judged that way.

    The young men I mentioned are really nice. I believe I said that. My cousin has cancer, and they know it, and offer assistance from time to time. I had been told that they can't use cars at all. I was told this by the people I worked with. One of the women taught 'seminary', so I assumed she knew what she was telling me. And the fellows live in an area that is very easily accessible by bus, and sidewalks all over the place. Also my area is literally covered in apartment buildings, so I would be naive to think they couldn't find one nearer their territory. I tend to think they have a car because it rains so much here. They would be pretty much left inside on some of those days if they didn't have a car.

    Anyway, I don't mean to defend or attack, or offend, so if I did, I apologize.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • ExmormonRobertson
    ExmormonRobertson

    He's giving you good info. But Susan you sound LDS, are you? I don't know. I was a member of the LDS church for 33 yrs before I wised up and got out. I do know that do believe that only people who've had their temple ordinaces(SP?) done, temple marriage, temple endowment, will get to the highest kingdom (Celestial) which is the big reward for them. The rest get sent to a lesser kingdom. It is also their teaching that before you can enter said kingdom, you have to get the approval of Joseph Smith first.
    One interesting aspect of this is that one matter what you've done in this life, if someone does your temple work after you've died, you can get to the Celestial Kingdom. The temple work has been done on Hitler and Eva Brun, meaning that they qualify for Godhood.
    Like Alex, feel free to ask me any question you may have on Mormonism. If you want to know what they do in the temples, I can point you where the info is. If you want a copy of their Bishop's handbook, I may be persuaded to send you one. But feel free at all times to look at my irreverent view of Mormonism. :-)

    Dana
    Visit my web sites at: http://exmormon.8m.com or http://antimormon.8m.com

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Mulan,

    Thanks for once again posting a nice response to my posting to you! I hope I didn't come across as being harsh, either, or overly critical, as that wasn't my intention. I think most people criticize either out of bitterness and anger (such as certain exMormons who post in here, who's postings are full of venom and bile that is definitely not deserved and not accurate but also not worth my responding to) or simply out of ignorance because they haven't been around a particular religion or its members enough to know. It never fails to amaze me what misinformation is floating around out there! Without the internet, I'd probably never have heard half of it.

    To the first I don't bother to respond. Pearls before swine and all that. To the second, though, I love to respond and see if I can shed some light, as others do for me regarding their religions. Yes, some missions do have cars. Here they have to. There are even horseback missions, canoe missions (Tonga), etc. It's whatever gets the job done and gets the Elders to the people.

    As for the Seminary teacher...Well, how can I put this nicely...Some are really outstanding, but some are sheer idiots. I guess another way to say it is...they are human and definitely fallible. Some know more than others. But it's a tough calling and I have to admire anybody who will take it on.

    Good hearing from you again!

    Susan

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Ex.Robertson,

    Yes, I am definitely LDS. Alex has some good info. And some very off the mark info. He obviously is one bitter and angry individual and is allowing that to taint his perceptions which unfortunately he is presenting as fact when they are merely his own opinion and are, in fact, wrong. I especially refer to his statements regarding what "all the members" or "everybody" knows which is then followed by some slam. Actually, it is HIS opinion, not what "everybody" knows or thinks or believes. Free agency at its lowest, but still his choice.

    You, also are mistaken in that you said only Temple saints qualify Celestial. Actually, many will qualify, LDS and not, who never partook of Temple ordinances. Don't forget, Celestial itself has several levels.

    Also, though the work was done for many past historical figures, there is no chance of Hitler or Eva being granted any measure of glory, and certainly not godhood status. The work for the dead gives opportunities and opens doors, but the individual still has to qualify individually. Nobody gets a free ride on someone else's efforts or testimony. Nothing is guaranteed or automatic if the individual is scum through and through. The two in question will spend eternity with their own kind, and that will NOT be Celestial.

    So it is not accurate to say that merely having Temple work done wipes the slate clean and wicked people get gold stars on their foreheads and hop onto the Celestial chariot. Not going to happen. Not even close.

    I've read some of your other postings. You have a fun sense of humor. I'll pass on the look at your website, though.

    Susan

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Hi, Ex.Robertson,

    Yes, I am definitely LDS. Alex has some good info. And some very off the mark info. He obviously is one bitter and angry individual and is allowing that to taint his perceptions which unfortunately he is presenting as fact when they are merely his own opinion and are, in fact, wrong. I especially refer to his statements regarding what "all the members" or "everybody" knows which is then followed by some slam. Actually, it is HIS opinion, not what "everybody" knows or thinks or believes. Free agency at its lowest, but still his choice.

    You, also are mistaken in that you said only Temple saints qualify Celestial. Actually, many will qualify, LDS and not, who never partook of Temple ordinances. Don't forget, Celestial itself has several levels.

    Also, though the work was done for many past historical figures, there is no chance of Hitler or Eva being granted any measure of glory, and certainly not godhood status. The work for the dead gives opportunities and opens doors, but the individual still has to qualify individually. Nobody gets a free ride on someone else's efforts or testimony. Nothing is guaranteed or automatic if the individual is scum through and through. The two in question will spend eternity with their own kind, and that will NOT be Celestial.

    So it is not accurate to say that merely having Temple work done wipes the slate clean and wicked people get gold stars on their foreheads and hop onto the Celestial chariot. Not going to happen. Not even close.

    I've read some of your other postings. You have a fun sense of humor. I'll pass on the look at your website, though.

    Susan

  • alex
    alex

    Susan I don't mean to be bitter and I apologize for my ill feelings towards anyone or any principle in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I sincerely hope that you are right that I've been one bitter and angry individual who is allowing this anger to taint my perceptions which would cause me to present as fact things which are merely my own opinion and are, in fact, wrong.

    Please tell me exactly what statements I've presented are inaccurate. I want to be sure that I am not misleading these people about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I still do believe in a supreme being and that I am still accountable to be truthful and honest. Show me where I am wrong and I shall repent.

    But I must warn you Susan that I'll expect you to live up to the same standards of honesty in your own declarations. I personally believe that truth can withstand scrutiny so I'm going to look at these issues in their full context.

    May we revise your comment about Hitler that "there is no chance of Hitler or Eva being granted any measure of glory, and certainly not godhood status" to be "there is probably little chance of Hitler or Eva being granted any measure of glory, and certainly not godhood status". Yes Hitler was evil but according to the New Testament so was the Apostle Paul before he converted. You know the LDS teaching that those who would have accepted the gospel in this life if given the chance will have a chance in the next life. For all you know Hitler didn't have his chance so even he would be entitled to a right to repent according to LDS doctrine as I understand it. I thought that LDS doctrine is that a person is judged according to the real intent of their hearts and its not possible for mortals to really judge this. I agree that LDS doctrine teaches that temple baptism doesn't just wipe the slate clean. The LDS doctrine just enables a fair chance for all people for salvation regardless of their circumstances in this life which might have prevented them from living the gospel. Yes its sad when the critics use soundbites that don't tell the full story. They would best to be honest and stick with those issues where there really is concern.

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Alex...

    You have already shown yourself to be a liar. In your previous entry you said you have no belief in Jesus or God and consider yourself an agnostic or diest. Now you say you still have faith in a supreme being. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. I don't even need to make an effort to trip you up. You are doing fine on your own.

    Of course those on this board will eat up your words with great delight since they are not familiar with LDS truth and are only too delighted to see someone slinging mud at the LDS Church. Certainly they will not bother to look too deeply into your words, which are, as with the words of Satan, truth mixed with error with intent to deceive.

    I do not believe you are unfamiliar with your intentional misstatements, nor do I intend to outline them each for you and prove why they are false. It would be a waste of both of our time. You will not shake my faith, nor will I be instrumental in restoring yours.

    As to the Hitler/God situation, however, the scriptures say there are two unpardonable sins...sinning against the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood. I think the murder of 6 million men, women and children qualifies under that category. Therefore, Hitler is in Spirit Prison and not eligible for any of the blessings of temple work. At best, he MAY be eligible for telestial redemption. No more. The scriptures make it clear that those who die after having lived a life with a disposition only to do evil continuously, as he did all his adult life, will continue with that disposition, and will arise with it. At the very least, he will have to repent of his sins. How do you repent of the murder of 6 million innocent people? Do you really believe the atonement can cover even ONE of those murders? It does not.

    It is a gross perversion of Temple doctrine to imply that a few ordinances by a living proxy can wash away such horrific sin. It cannot nor was it ever intended to do so. Those who perform those ordinances should be totally aware that it will not. The Temple ordinances, IF they were performed for him, which I seriously doubt and for which there is NO proof, would be performed solely for the purpose of linking generations, which is the main purpose of Temple work. The exaltation of the individual, IF THEY ARE WORTHY, is an added blessing, but in this case, would not apply, worlds without end. A deeper study of this doctrine is available as I am sure you are well aware, but this will have to suffice for purposes of this board. Accept or reject. It makes no difference to me.

    As for your statements, as I said, there is no end of deliniation I could make...But I will refer only to your statement that the Book of Mormon is false, based on your brilliant study and catching falsehoods left and right. What a crock! Amazing how thousands of students, tens of thousands, before you have attended those SAME classes, with those SAME professors and had their faith strengthened by the study THEY have done. I guess you are just the only smart one in the whole college, right? No. Not even close. That you chose to fall into such an easy trap of superiority was your undoing. Your pride is keeping you out of the faith. You are amongst those who will never admit you were wrong in leaving it. You will never allow anyone to clarify matters for you. YOu prefer the easy condemnation to searching out clarity and wisdom.

    It is your choice.

    Thus endeth the lesson. And our relationship on this board.

    Susan

  • TR
    TR

    Alex said:

    They believe that I have rejected God and that I'll be damned because I've given in to Satan. I still try to live a good life but they'll never accept this as long as I don't once again become a true believer in Mormonism.

    Susanhere said:

    The correct Mormon teaching is that all good people will qualify for Heaven, no matter what their religion. And those who are not good people, no matter what their religion, will not. The Bible, AND the Mormons, say that God judges on the heart...Not on the outward appearance of either man nor church building.

    Who's telling the truth here? Or do we have yet another Orwellian religion like the WTS.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
    —Edmund Burke

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    After being freed from religious nick-nackery, I just don't have the stomach or heart to wade thru these post on the LDS's. But, even just skimming, I can't help but be amazed at the "board game" character that comes thru, ie. "remember, celestial has many levels".

    I guess from a fresh, "olympian" viewpoint, the JW religion is probably kinda "board-game-ish", or no?

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