received revealing "witness" in parking lot

by Magnum 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    A few weeks ago I was working out of my home state and was in a grocery store parking lot when I received my first JW “witness” since leaving JWdom.  A youngish-looking lady was sitting in an SUV parked next to my car and I was about to get in my car to leave. She opened the door and asked whether she could give me something to read (had a tract in her hand).

    Instantly determining that I wouldn’t be able to reason with her and being on the clock for my job, I just said “I appreciate it, but I’m very familiar with what you have, and I really don’t want to damage your faith.” But she pushed the issue. She got out of the vehicle and walked over to me. She wanted to hand me the tract as if I was some clueless, ignorant lost soul whom she was trying to help with her vast knowledge and training and access to wonderful resources such as JW.ORG.

    I looked at the tract and told her that I am very familiar with her religion and really wouldn’t read the tract. I told her that back in the eighties I read a little red book, the title of which was something about living forever (I was playing dumb). She asked whether I had ever studied before. I lied and said JWs used to just come by and talk and that I had lengthy conversations with them and became very familiar with them.

    Again, I could tell that she was not the type that I could really reason with, so I decided I would just lay it on her. I very respectfully and kindly mentioned a number of points to her concerning the wrongs (current and past) of JWdom.

    To keep a long story short, let me just mention a few highlights and things I observed. It was really revealing and eye-opening to experience a “witness” from the outside, and it reinforces a number of points that have been made on this site concerning the current situation in JWdom and the future.

    Most of the time, she just had the “deer in headlights” look. She was clueless and ignorant and kept wanting to refer me to JW.ORG (it was so weird to hear that – to actually hear a JW referring me to a website). She did not and could not witness to me or reason with me in any way. She didn’t stand a chance. In a way, I think I might have been testing her, hoping she could convince me because I still want the promises of JWdom to be true. But she literally scored a zero; she was incapable. All she could do was try to give me a one page tract and refer me to JW.ORG.

    I found that she’s totally unfamiliar with JWdom -  current and past. I mentioned the fallacy of the current blood doctrine and the fact that the current JW “generation” teaching is ludicrous. I don’t think she was familiar with either teaching. She’s 32 and evidently a born-in. I mentioned Fred Franz and the fact that many of the teachings and writings that originated with him have been or are being abandoned. I got the idea that she didn’t know who F Franz was. She seemed to have never heard of the older JW publications I mentioned such as The Nations Shall Know that I Am Jehovah. She knew nothing of failed prophecy and was totally unfamiliar the 1975 issue; had never heard of it [That’s how I found out she was 32; when I mentioned 1975, she told me she wasn’t even born then, that she was born in 1982].

    Several  times (at least three) when I would mention specific things wrong with JWdom (either current or past) she said: “Well, I’m sorry you feel that way.” That is argumentum ad hominem (logical fallacy – in an argument, it’s attacking one's opponent himself rather than addressing his argument or the point he made). So her best answer to the specific points I made was to imply that there was something wrong with me (“I’m sorry you feel that way.”) I said in a respectful tone “Well, I can say the same to you. I’m sorry you feel the way you do.” She didn’t even attempt to address the issues I raised; “I’m sorry you feel that way” was her best answer.

    I mentioned the many JW failed prophecies. She retorted “but we don’t know the day or hour” several times. Each time I said “That’s what the Bible says, but the fact is that throughout the history of JWs they foretold a number of times that the end was coming by certain times, and it didn’t happen.” They foretold in the 1-1-89 Watchtower that then end would be here by the end of the 20th century, and it’s now almost 2015. She said they didn’t write that, that we can look it up at JW.ORG. I explained that you can’t look it up anywhere because the org changed the wording in the bound volume and that in itself is wrong. I told her that I have the actual magazine at home and can show her the words in print [deer in headlights]. I also told her to remember kj216 (The Nations Shall Know that I Am Jehovah  pg 216), that the same point is made there [that’s when I found out she had never heard of that book].

    At some point her older partner (also female) had come back from inside the store and was sitting in the SUV. The older partner got out and motioned for her to come on. I said “oh, she doesn’t want you hearing what I’m saying.” I also said “Remember, I told you that I didn’t want to damage your faith. You need to really examine your religion. I’ll be glad to help you. I’m really good at it. In fact, you could get all the leaders (playing dumb – didn’t want her to know I knew the term “elder”) in your congregation together against me alone and they wouldn’t stand a chance. I said that because I figured she might think of running to her elders for help concerning some of the things I said, and I thought she might have wanted me to speak with one of them.

    I know I can’t judge all JWs by this experience, but it does fit my current feelings about the way the majority of JWs would be in the ministry – clueless and incapable. It also helps me to realize that JWdom is in a transitional period. Before long all those who are familiar with the old JWdom will be gone. All those who remember Franz, all the craziness & failed doctrines, the older publications, etc. will be gone. The girl who witnessed to me was twelve or thirteen when the 70 or 80-year generation teaching was abandoned in 1995, so she doesn’t even remember the old teaching. Soon, with all the memories gone, JWs will be able to rebrand completely with their new, more mainstream style. They truly are trying to erase their past and start over. This JW girl could only refer me to JW.ORG. I think it truly is becoming the center or focus of JWdom. It’s being such will allow the JW leadership more control of info. With it, they will be able to change info, and there will be less of a paper trail to come back and haunt them.

    I believe that in a few more years even GB members won’t be familiar with the old JWdom. JWdom is in a transitional phase in that area, also. I bet Mark Sanderson knows less actual JW history than a lot of us do. The current GB members (GB 2.0) know less about old JWdom than GB 1.0, and GB 3.0 will know very little.

  • millie210
    millie210

    I have felt the same way about the 30 somethings. They really dont know anything about the history or the older publications. 

    The 20 somethings?

    Well there arent any to speak of - so who knows what they know but I suspect.... nothing.

    So that leaves the old people

    And like we can see for ourselves - they dont count.

    Interesting point you made about even the GB not really knowing their own history. I can see that.

    All in all you showed remarkable restraint Magnum. Good job. 

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    That's awesome! You might help her to awaken. 


    DD

  • freemindfade
    freemindfade
    Its not the same religion. The old timers weren't just brainwashed, they had things to believe in and knew how to stand up for it. Now all that is left is brainwashed part, Its a shell of what it used to be. If people delve into doctrine, science, rationality now in this day and age its a shortcut to enlightenment. They don't want that, they want people who need a fantasy to live for and shinny blue logo to follow.
  • flipper
    flipper

    MAGNUM my friend you handled that brilliantly ! Well done . I do really feel sorry for these younger JW's as they are NOT trained nearly as thoroughly as we were as JW kids. ( I was born-in left at age 44 over 11 years ago. ) But you were really kind to her and patient and that's what it takes to keep JW's listening to us. And by presenting yourself as a non-JW who talked to them before- it assisted you in communicating as this young lady looked at you as a potential convert. Instead of an " apostate ".

      But it's just like George Orwell's 1984 all over again with the WT Society as you stated. They feel they get such a turnover in newer members that they can just shred or throw away and discard all their old information from the 20th century as useless to their agenda. And most JW's are none the wiser. Really disgusting the manipulation of information that takes place. And all the denial and lies by WT leaders that " no we never taught that or said this " . Total crock of $hit. I bet the young JW got an earful from her older partner back in the car, but nonetheless great job on your part. Perhaps that lady will think about some of those things you showed her. You never know 

  • Magnum
    Magnum
    freemindfade: Its not the same religion. The old timers weren't just brainwashed, they had things to believe in and knew how to stand up for it. Now all that is left is brainwashed part, Its a shell of what it used to be

    That is so true. I was there; I remember the old-timers. It is truly is a shell of what it used to be.


  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    I believe that in a few more years even GB members won’t be familiar with the old JWdom. JWdom is in a transitional phase in that area, also. I bet Mark Sanderson knows less actual JW history than a lot of us do. The current GB members (GB 2.0) know less about old JWdom than GB 1.0, and GB 3.0 will know very little.

    I suspect this is already the case. How would Sanderson know all about the looney ideas of Russell, Rutherford or Fred Franz?

  • clarity
    clarity
    That was an awesome post......... wow after a history of 50 years around those people .........well just wow!
  • Brokeback Watchtower
    Brokeback Watchtower
    As far as older/past JWs being able to defend their beliefs better than today's modern JWs, I think the internet and its instant information and reams of it has a lot to do with the seeming difference. We were just a dumb and delusional as the currant ones but all the information we have access to make the older seem some how smarter and better able to defend their faith.
  • Godsendconspirator
    Godsendconspirator
    You did an awesome job. I don't really try to talk to witnesses anymore but I never mentioned the past before. The reason is right before I left, an elder had a talk saying he noticed that a person is an apostate if they tend to bring up 1975, Charles Russell and any old teaching. The whole talk was scary how much control they want over their followers.

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