Perfection

Deputy Dog

Perfection After a discussion with a couple of current JWs, it's come to my attention that my conception of perfection in "the Kingdom" is very different from theirs. On pages 188 & 189 of the Knowledge book, we see the society's (or artist's) conception. I prompted the discussion by asking, why is there so much sin in this picture? I really enjoyed the moment of silence that ensued, then, the response "Where?" "we don't see any sin". So I asked, why are all the people wearing clothes? After a few chuckles and another moment of silence one said, "I don't see the connection". Then I asked about the garden of Eden and why if it is God's plan to return the earth to a perfect Eden like state, would anyone need to wear clothes? Still no response. So I asked them to turn in their bibles to Genesis 3:7, 10

7

Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked. Hence they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves. ... 10 Finally he said: "Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself."

What was the first thing Adam and Eve did after they sinned? I asked. "They made coverings to hide themselves" one said. So I asked, if there was no need for clothes in the garden, before A&E sinned why, (if there will be no more sin in the "Kingdom"), would people need to cover themselves?

After 4 years of meetings, this was the first time in months, that these two young guys (both in their early 20s) appeared to think, instead of the usual garbage in, garbage out, responses. They began to speculate, and we all know what that means. I heard words like "maybe this" or "maybe that"and "we don't know...yet" this lasted about ten minutes or so.

Finally one said, "I believe that you can do things wrong and still be perfect". How's that? I asked. He said, "what I mean by perfect, is that in the Kingdom we won't get sick or die." "I see, so perfection in the Kingdom is about the conditions that man will live in, not the change that God would have to make in my sinful nature" I said. That's right! he said. The meeting ended shortly after.

I'll be meeting again with them soon. I would like to talk more about the sinful nature of man. Any Ideas?

D Dog

Nocturne

Finally one said, "I believe that you can do things wrong and still be perfect". How's that? I asked. He said, "what I mean by perfect, is that in the Kingdom we won't get sick or die." "I see, so perfection in the Kingdom is about the conditions that man will live in, not the change that God would have to make in my sinful nature" I said. That's right! he said. The meeting ended shortly after.

So God doesn't make a change in our sinful nature, by that statement doesn't it mean that they believe that in paradise they will still sin and have to ask for forgiveness, but they won't get sick and die? This would seem to contradict Romans (i forget where, haven't opened a bible in so long) where it states that the soul that sins, dies.

Keep asking questions like this, where it traps them and forces them to think outside the WTS box.

Nocturne

ezekiel3

Actually there are JWs that speculate that there will be no need for clothing (barring climate) in the new system. It's joked about as the "naked truth."

Another speculation actually supported by WTS pictures is that all humans will be vegeterian (no meat is shown in the illustrations).

It is just this sort of speculation that gets the WTS in a tither. A little reality check usually bounces.

kwintestal

I would like to talk more about the sinful nature of man. Any Ideas?

Ask them why some believe that the "fruit" that Adam and Eve ate was actually not food, but sexual intercourse (any talk about sex makes young JW's squeemish). If that was so, it may explain why they had to make clothes and cover up. It will also lead to the quesion of, Will there be sex in the new system? Why doesn't the WTS show pictures of people showing signs of affection (and I don't mean sex) in the mags or books? Do they believe that people won't have sex anymore?

Kwin

Snowcrash

I've heard so many perfection theories. The funniest one has to be from a trekkie in the congregation. For some reason, Star Trek is wildly popular in my congregation. I'm constantly hearing people talk about Enterprise. One of the trekkies gave this explanation:

They believe that since we will be perfect, humanity will create perfect technology, and will explore space with it. He was heavily implying that Earth would become very much like the Federation, and we would meet other races that Jehovah had created on other planets. His whole argument fell apart when I asked "What about the Klingons? If we met some hostile alien race and they had weapons, but we didn't, wouldn't they blow us up?" He nearly choked.

That leads to an interesting question. What about technology in the new system? What do they think about that?

MungoBaobab

God will cure all of man's physical imperfections.

So, if a man was maimed, the missing limb will grow back. Makes sense. If he had dentures, his teeth would grow back. Gotcha. What about if he was circumcised? Will foreskin grow back in the New system?

What if a girl has a mole on her face that she's self conscious about? Will it go away? Well, I guess a mole is like an imperfection in the skin, so, okay, yes. But then what if said girl is Cindy Crawford, and the mole is considered sexy? Would that somehow make her less-perfect?

gumby

So I asked, if there was no need for clothes in the garden, before A&E sinned why, (if there will be no more sin in the "Kingdom"), would people need to cover themselves?

The witnesses believe that man will continue to be free moral agents in the New System with the choice of sinning or not. For example, they believe that one can choose to become evil in the New System.....but Jehovah will not tolerate it and that person would be snuffed by him in short order. The practice of sinning will not be allowed to be carried on for any length of time, although sinning will be allowed.

Maybe Jehovah gave up on the naked idea since he can't trust his creation with loyalty to him for any length of time.

Besides......what if a guy has a little ding dong and all the other brothers poke fun at him?

Gumby

MungoBaobab

If everyone has a perfect body then won't EVERYBODY have a big ding dong?

ellderwho

For example, they believe that one can choose to become evil in the New System.....but Jehovah will not tolerate it and that person would be snuffed by him in short order. The practice of sinning will not be allowed to be carried on for any length of time, although sinning will be allowed.

This presents yet another problem. There will certainly be death in 'paradise' the Jw can not reconcile this contradictory issue. Their paradise is a confusing place.Clothes or not.

Esspecially with Gumbdongs comments

gumby

Mungo, EW........as you both already know, Eternal Life to a witness is conditional......never guaranteed. Perhaps this belief alone weakens a witnesses desire to strive to gain life. As a witness, you never have assurance about anything as your life always depends on your obeidience. Sad.

Gumby

Perfection

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