Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot 137 Replies latest jw friends

  • ianao
    ianao

    Beloved Dunscot:

    You think that I am a Witness because 'I believe that is what I should be'? I think you have misunderstood me.

    No, I've stated pretty much your own reasoning after reading through all of your fancy-pancy intellectual mumbo-jumbo. You can't fool me buddy-boy. You can rationalize it any way you like, but your posts ring loud and clear.

    Here is my stance on this matter. Personally, I think that objective criteria primarily governs my choice to remain a Witness.

    That's nice. Just as objective criteria governs my choice to remain a non-witness.

    There are a number of factors that caused me to become a Witness; some factors were objective, while others were subjective. At any rate, I now think that I can point to Scripture and show another rational agent that Witnesses have the truth.

    Ah, wonderful. So you can make decisions regarding your spirituality the same way you pick your favorite baseball team.

    In point of fact, this event happens all the time: A Witness somewhere around the world daily shows an autonomous subject some scriptural point that causes the hearer or subject to experience "insight learning." In other words, the hearer has an "aha!" experience. Similar events are recorded in the biblical book of Acts (Acts 17 & 18), indicating that Christianity is in some sense objective from a doctrinal standpoint.

    Okie dokie. The same thing happens within a "christiandom" church as well.

    My point is that my reasons for being a Witness are objective, I think (cogito). I think that I can point to Scripture and show why the rational agent encountering the word of Christ that I preach should become a Witness.

    Pardon the expression, but "no shit sherlock".

    Then why isn't everyone that hears the word convinced? Why aren't people coming into the organization by the gadzillions? As you well know, there are many reasons why most people do not respond to the good news preached by the Witnesses. While I will not discuss these reasons at the moment, I think I've demonstrated that which is to be demonstrated.

    Hmmm... Looks like everything you are telling me is from your own skewed perspective. You know, this would REALLY sound better coming from someone who became a witness, left the witnesses for doctrinal reasons, and then was reinstated after deciding that the witness doctrine was indeed correct. Coming from an active witness such as yourself, well, it seems skewed by ignorance and/or cognitive disconnance (SP!).

    While my reasons for being a Witness are objective in my eyes, that does not mean that I can successfully communicate the said reasons to you. So what?

    So that means that you should re-think your own line of thinking, especially if it is so cloudy that you are unsure of how to portray it to others.

    I think my being awake typing on this keyboard right now is an objective reality. Does that mean that I can apodictically prove that I am in fact awake right now and presently tapping the keys on this faithful old board?

    Hmm... Your post was not here a few hours ago, and now it is. Looks like you were the one who actually posted (unless of course, more than one person posts on your account.)

    Descartes says that I cannot. Furthermore, Alvin C. Plantinga notes that we cannot prove there are other minds either. Nor can I prove (apodictically) that I have been alive longer than five minutes. Saul Kripke also discusses the Wittgensteinian skeptic, who may make us wonder if we can prove that 2 + 2 = 4. I have actually attended college with certain persons who thought that you cannot "prove" such a proposition, even if it is true.

    How fascinating. Is this an attempt to parallel witness teachings to something fundamental to a human being's thinking instinct? The point escapes me. Oh wait a minute, you have invested a bunch of money into these classes right?

    To end this email, I will just observe that I think JWs believe many true propositions that can only be apprehended under certain epistemic conditions.

    Translation: "You have to believe the bullshit, often ignoring evidence to the contrary."

    For instance, an argument must not only be valid or sound, it must also be compelling and cogent. In order for you to be convinced of my beliefs, you yourself must concur with certain basic beliefs of mine: My argument must seem cogent to you.

    To reiterate (sp?): "No shit sherlock".

    If you do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God or that God exists, etc., then my logical demonstration would simply be signifiers in the wind.

    Wrong. Technically, if I did not believe that the bible is the word of God, yet a creator did indeed exist, then your "logical demonstrations" would still be "signifiers in the wind". Now, if I did not believe that any God exists, your "logical demonstrations" would definately be "signifiers in the wind".

    My inability to convince someone via argument does not mean that a Christian JW believer lacks objective criteria for certain tenets he or she holds.

    Of course not, it just means you have a bad argument.

    Paul Davies (famed astrophysicist) once claimed that there are certain things we know are true, but we cannot authenticate such facts. I think I somewhat agree with Mr. Davies. :-)

    Right, and I personally consider such things as "beliefs".

    THE END

    GOOD!!!

    Next time dunny, please get to the frigging point. I hate having to read all of this intellectual pittle-pucky just to discover that you've basically farted and fanned the gas away. Thank you.

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Hello Duns,

    You replied:

    But I'm telling you what I have experienced. This very love is an objective reality for me. Maybe you did not see this love in the organization. But remember that we have two different frames of reference, introspection, so I'm not about to tell you what you have or have not experienced. I'm just telling my side of the story in Gilsonian style.

    I don't doubt that you have experienced true Christian love with some in the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and frankly I have to admit that in my experience it was not completely absent either. However, I think the real question here is that as JWs is an organized religion, does the Witness belief system promote and facilitate this love or does it limit it's full expression? It is not a question of the heart condition of certain individuals who may be in the organization, but what does the organization stand for? Frankly one issue that comes to mind is the shunning that comes with disfellowshipping. Personally I find it questionable that it should be interpreted in such a literal way and be actually institutionalized. For the record, I am not disfellowshipped.

    "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now

  • ianao
    ianao

    dunscot:

    I have not responded to AlanF or Farkel, it is true. But my non-response has nothing to do with non-interest or inability. (Nevertheless, I will admit that I am only a midwife of ideas, unable to actually bring them to fruition in others, but I like to assist.) Unfortunately, I am not blessed with the attribute of ipseity. :-) I am one person and cannot adequately reply to every post. AlanF was remarkably genial, but he wrote a book. In case you have not noticed, there is one Duns on this forum, but a number of individuals interacting with the Scot. Furthermore, I do have a life outside of this forum. But I don't want to bore you with that story.

    Ah, so that's how we do it now? If someone's response is too detailed, then we simply cannot answer it because we have a life outside this forum.

    If this is the case, then why the long-winded petty-poop post to yours truly dunny? Could it be you felt intellectually adept at dealing with me, yet are intimidated by the likes of AlanF? (Not that I would blame you one bit for being so!)

    At least have the descency to turn down AlanF's challenge instead of leaving the man hanging. He did respond to you in earnest. Does he not deserve the same from you, being as human as you are?

  • MacHislopp
    MacHislopp

    Hello Dunsscot,

    I hope you don't mind but the way you phrase youself….for any average thinking
    christian is more like a philosopher and not so easy to understand.

    "The so-called "changes" in the WT used to bother me until I learned about Hegel's dialectical triad. The movement and unfolding of Absolute Spirit throughout human history regulates in an ontological and epistemological manner. Hegel's delineation of Spirit also sheds light on the cognitive workings of finite agents who share in the outworking of Spirit. Dialectically, thought develops by affirmation, negation, and then by negating the negation. Such epistemic movement might SEEM contradictory and maybe in a sense it is. But this dialectical triad need not be construed as false in any moment or erroneous in an absolute sense."

    Are youy trying to impress someone…as far it concerns me, I do prefer the CLEAR message from Christ Jesus.

    Btw, others, including Ozzipost, Sixof nine and Iarc gave you quite a nice answers.

    Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp.

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    CPiolo,
    No, I don't know Dunsscot, I was just parodying his stupid way of communicating to us in a jargon that is unfamiliar to the average reader. In my opinion he is just an asshole whose objective is not to communicate but to show that he is a JW unlike most of them: Not only one with an education, but one with an education in philosophy. His vocabulary and type of discussion belong in a college report, not in a discussion board.
    I wrote in Spanish to show that I can also talk in ways that will make it difficult for people in this board to be understood. I will have accomplished nothing because most of the people will not have an idea about what I said, yet Spanish is the language spoken by most countries in America. Without even taking a poll, I am pretty certain that there are more people in this board that speak Spanish than people who have taken philosophy courses.
    Maybe he should take a course in common sense.

    JRP
    If I wanted your opinion, I would beat it out of you (seen in a bumper sticker)

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Having read your responses to a number of people, dunsscot, (with the exception of responses to myself and Farkel, who it is obvious you're afraid to deal with) it has become evident that you're little more than a moron with a college degree in philosophy. Unfortunately, while you use much esoteric jargon and seem to understand it, you don't understand a more fundamental truth: if you use opaque jargon on the uninitiated, you don't really understand what you think you're talking about.

    In a philosophy class you might try to impress the professor and other students by mouthing the following: "I want to decipher the initial emotional/cognitive processes of those who for the first time don aerodynamic personnel decelerators and rapidly descend through a massive mixture of nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon dioxide and other gases in a situation where various autonomous subjects are attempting to adjust their personal circumstances to those of other autonomous subjects that have initiated socio-politico-emotional responses in the former in order to instantiate the wishes of a third cateogory of autonomous subjects that feel responsible for the socio-politico-military state of those in the first two cateogories." Of course, you might simplify that to "I want to know what military parachute jumpers think the first time they jump in combat", but that would be too simple and too mundane for such as yourself to say.

    Great scientists such as Einstein understood this well. Einstein understood that trying to talk about four-dimensional space-time tensors with a general audience was worse than useless. Your education, therefore, does others no good, since you do not understand what you've learned well enough to explain your ideas to others without resorting to the opaque jargon of your narrow specialty. Philosophy, of course, being about the softest of the 'soft sciences', is of necessity full of opaque jargon. And you're a moron not so much because you think you know a lot more than you actually do, but because you have taken on the role of 'JW defender' even after having learned a little, in basic philosophy, of why you ought not. So your stated goal of defending JWism by means of philosophy is doomed to failure, both on general principle and because of your own personal practice.

    Here are some examples of your bloated jargon that convey little or false meaning without the reader doing a double-take:

    Using "autonomous subject" instead of "person" or the equivalent.
    Using "the cognitive workings of finite agents" rather than "the thinking of mere humans".
    Using "ecclesia" instead of "congregation".
    Using "epidermal schema or existential situation" instead of "skin color or cultural background".
    Using "those removed from God's clean organization." instead of "those who had enough moral sense to reject the Watchtower Society".

    Here's a particularly good one with respect to bigboi's observation that you're "Talkin loud, but aint sayin nothin": "When one delves into the abstract depths of each man's thought, however, he or she begins to tap the surface of a brilliance that has hitherto been unrealized." Right. In other words, when bullshit words pull the wool over a lot of peoples' eyes, "the emperor's new clothes" syndrome reigns supreme. Duh! Fodeja is perfectly right: your writings are entirely without substance.

    The following statements of yours to bigboi sum up the depth of your cluelessness: "I try to be concise on this forum, while being philosophically precise. This fact does not mean that I'm trying to be glib." A googol of "HaHa's" would not suffice here. Nevertheless, certain astute people have seen through your nonsense and have posted good answers for you. You have responded generally with more obscure gobble-de-gook. Let me comment on some of this glop, in the hope that you're not purely a troll:

    "To Larc, Introspection, and others" you wrote: "I want to examine how human cognition functions in an environment where ex-JWs thrive and flock." This statement might be fine in a philosophy paper where wordiness is valued over substance, but when you're talking to real-word people a simple, "I want to understand how online ex-JWs think" would suffice. You also wrote, "I want to ... show that the very structures that make knowledge possible are inclined to seek and know an infinite horizon of being." This is complete bullshit. It is meaningless, bloated jargon. "Structures" are insentient and are not "inclined to seek and know" anything. The phrase "an infinite horizon of being" is completely meaningless without a great deal of explanation -- which you have not given, and are clearly incapable of giving. Perhaps in your philosophy classes this phrase was beaten to death, and so you understand what you mean -- but no one else does. This is a good illustration of the fact that you don't understand your philosophical material well enough to know the difference between what specialists and laymen will understand or fail to understand when you use jargon. Again, in your chosen field you're a moron.

    To TD you argued, in essence, that it is hunkey dory for the Governing Body to disfellowship good people merely for disagreeing with their teachings, even if those teachings are false. But in so doing, you've proved one of my basic contentions: Jehovah's Witnesses do not first worship God, but give their first loyalty to the Watchtower Society. You've also ignored the most important teaching of the Bible: Jehovah is the God of truth. You've also ignored specific biblical condemnations of the behavior of these leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses:

    "Anyone pronouncing the wicked one righteous and anyone pronouncing the righteous one wicked -- even both of them are something detestable to Jehovah." (Proverbs 17:15)

    "You are to keep far from a false word. And do not kill the innocent and the righteous, for I shall not declare the wicked one righteous." (Exodus 23:7)

    In its history, how many times has the Watchtower Society declared "the wicked one righteous"? How about J. F. Rutherford, a drunkard and an adulterer? How many times has the Society declared the "righteous one wicked?" How about the "silentlambs" whom the Society has relegated to obscurity but are now beginning to speak out?

    You claim to adhere to the Bible. Why then, do you support a cadre of old men who presume to declare their own understanding of the Bible so superior to that of everyone else that they presume to disfellowship for apostasy from God any JW who challenges their fallible teachings? See Raymond Franz's work Crisis of Conscience for a review of this notion. Also consult your own mind, if possible, for a review of this notion. You understand that Karl Klein understood this notion. But neither you nor Klein have understood that the notion is fatal to JWism. Why is that?

    You answer, dunsscot, or lack of answer, to these questions, will determine in the minds of readers whether you're a sincere Christian or a mere troll.

    As for your claim that you have difficulty reading books, such as the "book" I wrote in response to your first bit of silliness, I will guarantee this: unless you can respond to and deal substantively with every issue I raised, you will have no credibility whatsoever, on this forum or in terms of objective truth. Only one of your fellow JWs will fail to understand this.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Faraon, I think you're right that this guy dunsscot is just a typical JW who has a little bit of education beyond the Kingdom Hall, who thinks he knows everything necessary about the world. It will be interesting to see how long he can keep it up, in the face of objective challenges to his emotional beliefs. Something like a YEC learning for the first time that the earth was formed billions of years ago.

    AlanF

  • larc
    larc

    Faraon and AlanF,

    I really respect your diligence in analyzing (sp) the word fog that is Duns. It takes a lot of tedious effort and time to take on the task. Frankly, I wasn't up to it today.

    After all is said and done, I think his belief system can be summed as follows:

    1. I believe in the Bible because I believe in the Bible.

    2. I believe in the Witness interpretation of the Bible, because that is what I believe.

    AlanF, stay in touch.

  • larc
    larc

    Duns,

    I haven't had time to spend time with you today, because I was addressing a less esoteric subject than you presented. Within your framework (or should I say, within your Gestalt), it is one of those minor perterbations in a system, known as suicide within the congregation.

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Hello, dunsscot,

    I've been following this thread with interest and figured to add my two cents. Your original questions were good and the sentiment appreciated, though I realize that others may not agree. That is their privilege.

    IMHO the mind sets of those who have left the Organization follow, as a general rule, the same patterns of the way they were before they left. Those who had closed minds before are still closed now, but in other matters. Those who were open to new thought are still open to new thought. Those who were sloppy, concise, methodical, etc., etc., are still that way.

    I imagine that some will challenge me on this, so keep in mind that I am NOT referring to their knowledge, as the vast majority of us have learned a great deal. What I AM referring to is the way they process that knowledge. As you know, human nature and habits are hard to change.

    I must agree with AF though. Your big words may sound good to a few, but as to practicality, the word "useless" comes to mind. They do a far better job of obfuscating your meanings than the clarifying of them.

    I'm offering the following in a good faith effort to add to the questions under discussion. This is my own concept and is not meant to be definitive.

    It was attached to a letter written about a month ago to one of the Society's trouble-shooters who moved into our congregation along with four others to (apparently) keep an eye on whatever mischief I'm up to this time. (At least I take pleasure in the supposition!! Hehehehe!!!!)

    “WHAT IS TRUTH?”

    To my readers: This article is not for the purpose of “instructing” you in anything, but simply submitted in the hope that you can use some of these concepts or (especially desired) add to them. My thought is that we all use up too much time and effort fighting over our respective “truths” and completely overlook the marvelous opportunity to use other’s insights to advance the body of human knowledge beyond where it is now.

    Pontius Pilate’s question to Jesus, “What is truth?” (John 18:38) is as apropos now as it was then. Billions of people have pondered that question down over the milleniums.

    Ever since mankind has come into existence they have been gaining in knowledge. It was slow at first and gradually picked up speed until, in the past two centuries, it has literally exploded. That knowledge has turned much, if not most, of our ancestor's knowledge on its head.

    This steady advance in knowledge is normal, natural, and prophesied. It was mentioned numerous times in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 13: 9-12 is a good example, while 1 Peter 1: 11, 12 enlarges on it to the extent that even the angels themselves were looking forward to additional knowledge. Ezekiel's vision as recorded in Ezekiel 47: 1-6 is especially enlightening inasmuch as most authorities understand that the "water" spoken of here is a reference to knowledge and how it increases down through the centuries.

    Due to this factor, then, we function on the premise that everything is subject to examination and nothing and no one is too sacred to escape that examination.

    The Three Kinds of Truth

    A learned friend of mind, a professor of ethics in an eastern university, divided truth into these three categories:

    1. Absolute Truth --- That truth which corresponds to absolute reality, and is usually known only to our heavenly creator and to those whom he decides to give it. The term "absolute reality" refers to the totality of knowledge that exists on any given subject as viewed through His eyes.

    2. Relative Truth --- The progress that we imperfect humans make toward gaining "Absolute Truth", but never quite reach in spite of our best efforts. There is always more to learn.

    3. Relative Truth Believed Absolutely --- A "Relative Truth" that we have gained such confidence in that we refuse to consider any further evidence concerning it.”

    I find this concept fascinating in that it is a way to structure knowledge and emphasize to all regardless of our education or intelligence, that there is a whole world of “truth” out there that is as yet untouched. To those who understand it, it tends to reduce conflict and encourage the sharing of viewpoints without ego interfering with our helping one another to advance. It is a way to sharpen one another’s “face”, as the scripture says. (Prov. 27:17) It’s a whole new frontier where everyone can explore and be thrilled by their part in it.

    It also clearly depicts a danger that we are all prone to make.

    Expanded Thinking

    We might view it in this manner:

    Truth is much like an artichoke. It has many leaves and each leaf has a small amount of nutrient under it. Most people will pull off a few leaves, be satisfied with what they’ve found, and never think that it would be advantageous to pull off a few more to see what is under them too.

    To illustrate: Most of us know that 1+1=2. It becomes to many an ‘absolute truth believed absolutely’ that they ‘know’ and won’t question. However, is it always?

    What if we are dealing in the binary base where the only numbers used are “0” and “1”? Then it isn’t 2, it’s 10. At one time, such a concept would have been considered a silly mind game, but now that principle is the very heart of the computer world. They wouldn’t work without it. Who would have believed a century ago that the binary base would come to have such importance in the world now?

    Or what if we are in the world of biology? There 1+1 can equal 2, or 200, or 2,000, or 2,000,000. It all depends upon how long the 1 has been with the other 1. Look at the rabbits in Australia and all of the environmental damage they’ve caused.

    Please note that neither of these “expanded” concepts contradicts the original. They merely add to the standard body of “Truth”.

    Another example of the different layers of truth would be a riddle I’ll bet you’ve heard. It’s about a bear hunter and goes like this:

    The hunter woke up in the morning, ate breakfast, grabbed his rifle and left camp looking for bears. After walking one mile due south, he spotted a bear to the east. Heading due east, he caught up to the bear and shot and killed it at a point exactly one mile from where he first saw it. After skinning it out, he packed the hide exactly one mile due north, which brought him back to his camp, only to discover that another bear had raided the camp.

    Now, what was the color of the bear that raided the camp?

    Most people will say that the problem is impossible in the first place, as if one were to go one mile south, one mile east, and one mile north, he won’t be back at his camp. He’ll still be one mile east of camp.

    Others, though, will feel good about themselves as they’ve recognized that the clues are in the directions. They can see that if the camp was set up exactly on the North Pole, you would end up right back where you started. The eastern leg would be merely an arc going around the pole. From there the answer is obvious. The bear was white.

    However, we can take this one step further. There is an infinity of other places upon the earth where we can follow the same directions and still get back to the same place. Can you tell me the general locale where they exist, and what the route will look like?

    It is this “expanded thinking” that can be extremely valuable. It is from there that we gain new knowledge and add to our ‘”relative truths”. Just like wandering through an unexplored wilderness, one never knows what will be discovered.

    Identifying Those “Leaves”

    One way to discover new knowledge is to search for commonalties or “patterns” in things that are seemingly unrelated.

    An excellent example of one would be the experience of Dmitri I. Mendeleev and the way he came to formulate his Periodic Table of Elements. He noticed that some of the various elements had similar qualities, and that they appeared on a predictable basis in relationship to their atomic weight. (For further information, please check him out in the encyclopedia.)

    But let’s look an example in another subject. The need for love, peace, kindness, honesty, integrity, and a host of other qualities are yearned for by people of all races, languages, and eras. The laws as set forth by Genghis Khan reflect an astonishingly similar value system as that of the laws given to Israel, even though the man was neither Christian or Jewish nor familiar with either. That these same feelings are found in all peoples is de facto evidence that this is the way that Jehovah designed us, as well as a witness to His qualities.

    I would say in regard to the ‘heavenly court case’ that is going on right now between Jehovah and Satan, that a good attorney could make a beautiful ‘closing argument’ on the basis of that one commonality alone. Satan keeps maintaining that all humans prefer his ways of doing things, but when humans strive to get as close to Jehovah’s ways as possible even when they are unaware of them, it makes Satan look like a fool.

    It has been said that much can be told about an artist by examining his works. If even the stones can bear a witness (Luke 19:40), how much more can a living thing? This is why I have always laughed at the concept of removing all windows from Kingdom Halls, ostensibly for the reason that the young will be less distracted from the proceedings under way. If the truth was known, the average tree can give a better witness to Jehovah’s qualities than the average elder. One just has to know how to “read” the language.

    Of course, both are valuable, each in its own unique way. They compliment each other.

    Another Valuable Resource

    There are those who frown on reading or dealing with contrary thought. Those who do, appear to have forgotten a few things. In 1 Cor. 9:19-20, Paul speaks of how he strove to become different things to different people in order that “ . . . I may become a sharer of it (the good news) with others.” To do that means becoming familiar with what and how they believe. At times it is necessary to know their beliefs even better than they do.

    Of course, that by no means indicates that we should become exactly what they are, even as the passage points out more than once. Rather, he’s saying that it is necessary to know their thought processes. In a very real way it is like learning another language, it’s just that the two languages happen to use the same words.

    Then too, we might just ask ourselves these questions: Is truth weaker than falsehood? If not, then why are we afraid?

    Here are some other advantages to knowing contrary thought:

    a. Contrary thought provides the questions that need answered.

    b. Most advances spring from unusual, independent, or heretical thinking. Even if an idea is totally crazy, it may trigger a good one in someone else’s mind.

    c. In looking over our work, we can contrast it with the old and see the advantages for ourselves.

    d. So that we will have the tools and freedom necessary to make a decision for ourselves, and glory in that freedom, which incidentally, is the only way to formulate the type of answer that Jehovah requests of us.

    A Matter of Perspective

    We need to keep in mind that the “truth” we possess right now is miniscule in comparison to everything that can be learned. Look at it this way:

    If, in the 1600's, we would have walked across the room, flicked a switch on the wall and a bright light suddenly appeared in the ceiling, we would have probably been hung for witchcraft.

    Or, to use another example, picture two of the most intelligent men of their age, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, trying to understand and fix one of today's computers when it was broken down.

    When we look into the past and compare our knowledge now with what they had then, we appear to be light years ahead of them. That makes us feel good and flatters our egos. But in the process we tend to forget that there is far more yet to learn; many more “leaves” to discover on our “truths”.

    We could say that we are like a sand flea on the beach in Alaska. Every evening at dusk they migrate down to the water line and every dawn go right back up to the vegetation line to sleep during the day. All we are is like the one who decided to go a little farther, climbed the 15 foot bank above the shore and looked out at the magnificent view that no other sand flea in history ever saw.

    He would be quite proud of himself, wouldn't he? He may even wish to lord it over his fellows and claim to have all knowledge. But what he doesn't realize is that a few miles further inland, there is a mountain that goes up another 20,305 feet. That rather dwarfs his measly 15 feet, doesn't it? How are we any different?

    How foolish we are to allow any of our "truths" to become "relative truths believed absolutely"!

    Dunsscot, I found it amusing that in the telephone call I received from him a few days later, one that lasted a good 45 minutes (even though I've been disfellowshipped for more than 12 years now for the crime of thinking without permission) he made no reference at all to anything I brought up in this article.

    The one major difference we have is I strongly believe that while many of the GB and lower ranks may have/had good heart conditions, the Holy Spirit has never, is not now, and will never (at least in this system of things) "inspire", "aide", or _____ (insert any other euphemism) any man in any organization here in these last days. I say that for some very profound reasons.

    That they claim such is just like your use of big words, or some people's use of alcohol. It imparts a false courage and sense of security in the user, while turning others off.

    On average, though, thanks for the thread. I enjoyed it.

    LoneWolf
    Alias: Tom Howell

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