Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-21-04 WT Study

by blondie 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • BluesBrother
    p9 it becomes very evident that Gods people enjoy a spiritual paradise

    There must be a name for this type of fallacious argument. The technique is to keep telling a seperated audience how much better off they than the world outside. Like a Communist leader in, say old East Germany , telling them how much better off they are than those who have to struggle in the capitalist world.

    If you keep telling people that they are in a paradise if only they can appreciate it, they get to believe it and preen themselves thinking they really are better off. What they cannot know is that the "Spiritual Paradise" is no more real than the "Kings new clothes " of the old Danny Kaye song... It is all in the imagination

  • Flash

    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this man--whether in the body or away from the body I do not know, God knows--Was caught up into paradise, and he heard utterances beyond the power of man to put into words, which man is not permitted to utter.? 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (Amplified Bible)

    This is one of my favorite scriptures since it clearly confirms Out-of-Body experiances as real and NOT occult. The programing the Elders get wont allow them to aknowledge it though.

    A People Restored and Transformed

    Paragraphs 8-15

    Connecting an OT prophecy again with a 20 th century JW teaching, the WTS goes to Isaiah and is not content with the "initial fulfillment."

    This historic prototype helps us to understand what Paul saw in vision. It would involve the Christian congregation.

    "Historic prototype" means we're about to create new light.

    Granted we know that individually we are imperfect , so it does not surprise us that problems occasionally arise, even as they did among Christians in Paul?s day.

    Imperfection is always the cause, NEVER poor judgement and certianly NOT with the 'Guaranteed 100% Spirit Directed Always Right Never Wrong Humble as a Young Child Governing Body'.

    What is the third heaven?

    Heaven seems to be multi-diamensional. We know there are at least three. What could the total be? Three? Seven? Ten? One hundred?? Time will tell when God reveals it.

    Thanks again Blondie.

  • eby

    In 1952 it was explained that Paul saw by "vertical rapture" a spiritual paradise that existed in his day.

    *** w52 4/15 p. 248 The Field of Bible Prophecy ***

    23 An excellent example of a ?vertical rapture? is the case of the apostle Paul where so realistically in a vision he was carried away in mind to see the highest heavens where God dwells. He vividly saw the paradisaic spiritual prosperity that existed in God?s organization in Paul?s day then and there. He says he saw and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for him to speak or record. (2 Cor. 12:1-4, NW) What Paul saw was no prophecy but an actual insight into the operations of God?s masterful invisible organization. Doubtless this enabled Paul, not only to be such a stout advocate for strict adherence to principles of theocratic organization in the early congregation, but to introduce additional organizational procedures and counsel based on this experience of vertical rapture.?1 Cor. 7:25, NW.

    "Verticle rapture" was part of the vocabulary of the "Pure Language". I really wonder how many JWs have used or even heard the words "verticle rapture"?

    *** w53 4/15 p. 231 The Language Barrier and the ?Pure Language? ***

    And as the columns of The Watchtower throw ever more light on God?s Word, Jehovah?s witnesses find their vocabulary being enriched, the pure language growing. Thus we note that for his unfaithfulness the covering cherub who became Satan was ?divorced? from God?s organization; compared with Jehovah?s absolute freedom, ours is a ?relative? freedom; ?vertical rapture? refers to supernatural revelation of heavenly things existing at the time; whereas ?horizontal rapture? tells of things far along on the stream of time.?2 Cor. 12:1-4.

    The explanation applying the vision to a future time seems to have been explained in 1959.

    *** w59 2/1 p. 77 Maintaining Our Spiritual Paradise ***

    2 Nineteen hundred years ago, when Jesus spoke those words, no earthly paradise existed. Neither did there then exist the spiritual paradise to which Paul was later caught away to hear unutterable words which it was not lawful for a man to speak then.?2 Cor. 12:4.


    *** it-2 p. 576 Paradise ***

    Paul?s vision, nevertheless, must logically have applied to some future time, so as to constitute a ?revelation.? (2Co 12:1) An apostasy was due to set in among the Christian congregation and was already working in Paul?s day; it would result in a condition like that of a field oversown with weeds. (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43; Ac 20:29; 2Th 2:3, 7; compare Heb 6:7, 8.) So, Paul?s paradise vision would not reasonably apply while such was the case but would evidently relate to the time of ?the harvest season? when the genuine Christians would be gathered by the angelic reapers and would enjoy rich blessings and spiritual prosperity from God.


  • Badger


    Paradise. Do you remember how you felt when you first heard about God?s promises of an earthly paradise??Were you not thrilled to read of dead loved ones coming back to life with the prospect of remaining in that Paradise?-?Isaiah 11:6; 35:5,6; John 5:28,29.

    Isn?t this the message that is really pushed from door to door? Not the vindication of God?s sovereignty and the sanctification of his name?or the Kingdom?

    What is the universal issue?Paradise? An individual?s personal salvation?

    True...people are selfish in nature...and the WTS appeals to that at first. People serving God for personal gain...

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    People serving God for personal gain...

    ultimately at loved ones' expense

  • heathen

    Interesting stuff there , good job blondie. I wonder if this episode of pauls is related to the the rapture ( or so commonly called) belief . I do know that many of the old testament prophets claimed these type of visitations and so now the new testament writers trying to explain the goings on and experiencing these type of things . It's part of the prophesy that the male slaves would have visions and prophesy and the female would prophesy while old men have dreams .else it was a mirage due to lack of water in the desert .

    It is my belief unlike what the WTBTS keeps insisting , is that there are two resurections one to life and another to judgement and the first resurection are to those of the heavenly co rulers or the saints . The second resurection does not happen until the 1000 yr. period has ended and satan is let loose for the second time . My point being is that those that are chosen for life on earth have to face yet another period of test including all christians . The only ones that are alive during the 1000 yr. period are those that survive the great tribulation and never die . They do have this strange belief that people will be resurected during the 1000yr. period and will grow younger or older til they reach the age they will spend eternity . I don't see any of that in the bible at all .

    I do agree that jesus actually did say to the man on the stake next to him ," truly I say unto you this day, you will be with me in paridise . " He did not say in heaven or promise him co- rulership like he did his apostles .

    I also disagree that all christians in the 1st century were of the co- ruler class . I still think it was a guy thing and did not include women .

  • cyberguy

    Another good review, Blondie!

    My take on this "provision from Jehovah," was that they are playing-up the "spiritual paradise" since 1919! The real reason for doing so is to secure the authority of the JW-leadership in Brooklyn! Of course, maybe Paul was getting a vision of a "paradise" of sorts, the pedophile "paradise" we?ve only become all too aware of!

  • jgnat

    Hi, Blondie. Here's hoping you are well, I am missing this week's comments. I am happy to report that I have far less time to study the materials, as they are more often put on the back burner these days. I have just a few snippet comments from the paradise study,

    para 10 ...Many who were as good as deaf to Bible prophecies have come to hear with understanding what the Scriptures say (Isaiah 35:5)
    How about deaf to the prompting of the Holy Spirit? By obeying the Watchtower rules rather than their natural desire to love and care, Jehovah's Witnesses cause untold heartache to family and friends.

    (1 Cor 13:2 BBE)

    And if I have a prophet's power, and have knowledge of all secret things; and if I have all faith, by which mountains may be moved from their place, but have not love, I am nothing.

    (Rev 2:2-4 BBE)

    I have knowledge of your doings, and of your hard work and long waiting, and that you will not put up with evil men, and have put to the test those who say they are Apostles and are not, and have seen that they are false; And you have the power of waiting, and have undergone trouble because of my name, without weariness. But I have this against you, that you are turned away from your first love.

    Apostates dissed, again. They ...overshadow...animalistic traits...animalistic traits...
    Loyal JW's duly warned, again. They ...(must) remain loyal to God...could drift right out - or be put out...

    Do you think the WTS is promoting the dual SPIRITUAL PARADISE and EARTHLY PARADISE as a way to flag the discouraged troops? "Sure, the physical paradise has taken longer to appear than any of us supposed, but don't forget, the regular digestion study of Watchtower pablum materials keeps us in a constant stupor state of Spiritual Paradise."

  • Unfettered

    I was pretty much raised a JW. However, at the age of 13 began having extremely vivid out of body experiences... including times when I would turn around and see myself lying on the bed. However, my JW training made me deny them as such, and I described them to others as "lucid" dreams. It wasn't until I was about 25 that I finally understood what they were. At that point I had a very powerful experience with an Angel/Guide which came and took me on a "tour" of heaven and explained a few things to me... the tour included different "levels" of heaven.

    Previously, I had been a ministerial servant in excellent standing in line to be an elder. I was on the Talk circuit with the congregations in our area and was regularly used at the assemblies for demonstrations and talks. For about a good 6 months to a year before I left I had begun to have a gnawing in the pit of my gut about the fact that I was missing some key elements of the "truth" and that they society had some things wrong. That was quite evident from my own experiences. I think my experience is quite powerful in that you've got someone who absolutely doesn't believe in Out of Body experiences because he's been trained to believe that way and who is very zealous for the organization and yet, is absolutely having out of body experiences and understandably has great difficulty rationalizing the experiences against the beliefs instilled by the organization. I started to realize that I needed to "exit" and get some space and freedom to do some real study of the issue. One day I just moved away and haven't been to a meeting since. That was about seven years ago or so. Since then, I practice meditation almost daily and have had some amazing experiences that absolutely validate to me that truth is not the property of any religious organization. Truth is found from personal experience and exploration. Jesus said to search for truth like hidden treasure continually... he didn't say to stop. Yet it seems a lot of people in religions stop searching and just let their religion spoon feed them.

  • minimus

    Unfettered, WELCOME!!!! Interesting post! I like your point about constantly searching for treaure.

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