ACLU opposes "critical thinking" (on evolution) textbook sticker

by hooberus 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Evolution for all intents and purposes is an established fact. (The exact mechanisms which drive evolution are theoretical.)

    It's hard for me to side with you on this, Hooberus, when the sticker is an outright lie.

    I think that by "evolution" the sticker was referring to the formation of new basic kinds of animals and structures (something which has not been observed), rather than relatively minor observed variation within basic kinds (such as varieties of wheat).

    Besides, the ACLU's arguments seem to be based more on claimed religion issues rather than on technical arguments about the claimed factual status of evolution.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    The sticker doesn't bother me. But why are national organizations getting involved in a local school boards decisions?

    this is why the left will fail - they just don't respect people's right to decide for themselves how to live their lives, including the will to believe...

    CZAR

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    they just don't respect people's right to decide for themselves how to live their lives, including the will to believe...

    This is not "for themselves", but "for their children". If there is no public, i.e. secular education available to all children regardless of their families' religious affiliation, you're heading to the "Evangelical Republic" pattern. Very dangerous path imho.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I agree. But just because it is "secular" does not make it correct or accurate. I think education should embrace religious thought as a vibrant part of our culture and history.

    Plus, is it really worth the trouble of suing over these stickers? I mean, they aren't espousing anything in particular, they are just pointing out the simple truth that evolution has NOT been proven 100 percent and that people need to approach ANY scientific argument with an open mind and critical thinking. If evolution really has as much going for it as many secular people think it does, then won't the kids reach the same conclusions as them? In general? I mean, it didn't take me that long to get over the notion that human life was completely disconnected from other life forms - DNA studies in particular proves that to me.

    Won't the facts speak for themselves louder than any amount of stickers?

    I think science class often becomes a one-sided argument in favor of atheism, which is a religion in its own right. Many science teachers I studied under took a twisted pleasure in putting a true / false question: Evolution is a fact. Which puts the student in the quandrary of having to either betray his or her religious upbringing, assuming that they have one, or getting a lesser mark than an atheist. This was not one teacher. This was a repetitive pattern in the schools I attended in three English speaking countries: Australia, Britain, and the USA. Grade and higher schools both.

    CZAR

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    they are just pointing out the simple truth that evolution has NOT been proven

    Oh, but evolution *has* been proven to occur. From talkorigins.org: "Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact."

    There is certainly nothing wrong with thinking critically about any belief (scientific, religious), but this sticker is motivated by religious people who FEAR evolutionary science. They fear it because it challenges their faith.

    atheism, which is a religion in its own right.
    I couldn't disagree more. Look up religion at dictionary.com:

    re·li·gion
    n.

    1. (a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
      (b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
    2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
    3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
    4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

    The only one that could possibly be applied to "Atheism" is definition #4. But you would have to show that everyone who is atheist is very zealous about their belief. Certainly some are; people can be zealous about ANY belief. Atheism is no more a religion than someone who is enthusiastically devoted to Coke over Pepsi!

    Which puts the student in the quandrary of having to either betray his or her religious upbringing, assuming that they have one, or getting a lesser mark than an atheist.
    First, you assume that only atheists recognize evolution as a fact. That is most definitely not true. Second, you identify the real problem here: science conflicting with religious beliefs.

    400 years ago they could have had this same "sticker" put in science books that showed our solar system is heliocentric. Religious people at the time wanted to believe in a geocentric universe and felt that anything other than that is a threat to their faith. Today no one has a problem with accepting the heliocentric solar system model. Religion has survived. It will survive the evolutionary theory, as well.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    The religious parents who fought for this sticker to be put into books went too far, IMO. Religious beliefs should not affect what secular schools teach, especially in the realm of science. Religion has a horrible track record when it tries to counter science.

    Religious parents who do not believe in evolution can bash it at home and at their church. That's where religious teaching belongs. It worked for me when I was a dub. I didn't believe evolution at all even though my high school biology textbook taught it as a fact.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    The "critical thinking" and "creationism" the two are like the north and south poles of a magnet , opposite and opposed to each other.

    Well it's not surprising that creationist want to be seen on the high road of critical thinking,,it adds more to the illusion that they have found the truth thru critical unbiased research. It's just rhetoric designed to bolster the illusion that christians have the truth.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Atheism is no more a religion than someone who is enthusiastically devoted to Coke over Pepsi!

    And some theologians would consider over enthusiastic devotion to a soft drink to be idolatry. they would have a point.

    You are absolutely correct about the fact that this is evangelically motivated. I don't think such a sticker would be necessary; EXCEPT that scientific textbooks in schools are usually terrible, and are often written from the atheist standpoint; with dogmatic assertions about how evolution works that often present bad argumentation even from a scientific standpoint. I've been caught out assaulting outmoded theories, theories that were presented to me as being FACT and I was tested as to my acceptance of these theories.

    What's the harm in calling it a theory? It makes the religious types feel safer, has no bearing on day to day life, and at least allows for the remote possibility that our concept of evolution might need substantial revision someday. It is more honest to say that most scientists accept evolution as a fact, rather than test a student on a true / false loyalty oath that will probably prove wrong in time.

    For instance, I wrote down True, after some agonizing. I decided that spitting up what the teacher wanted was more productive than defending my vision of God. So I wrote down that evolution, the theory that was presented to me in class, was a fact. However, I learned later that almost everything that I had learned, and accepted as a fact, in that class, was rendered irrelevant. From what I recall the theory was that viruses and radiation create most DNA mutations, that cellular life had originated in hydrothermal beds in the sea, and that evolution was a slow, steady process. (All these theories have been discounted, since).

    I think it was immoral to make me say that I accepted all this as fact, particularly when it contradicted my religious beliefs at the time, in a class I was forced to take by the State. In a sense, the State was forcing me to renounce my faith. Which is a disturbing exercise. Now if the class were optional, or in a private school, or had even acknowledged that the dogma it was teaching me might be disproven by fresh evidence someday... well... I would have felt better about it. That's all the sticker is doing. Making some kids feel better about studying evolution.

    CZAR

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I think it's sound and fair to separate facts (e.g. fossil evidence) from theory in the teaching of evolution.

    But no responsible, secular, education program can ignore the fundamentalist old strategy: "as long as no consistent theory has been completely proven (and of course a theory will never be completely proven), the unshakable creed is the only secure foundation!"

    What is most necessary imo, in addition to scientific disciplines, is a critical, comparative study of religions in school. We are also lacking this very badly in France.

  • Dawn
    Dawn
    Hell, if the bible thumpers want to put their ideas in science books, then the scientists should be able to put the following sticker in all bibles:
    This bible contains material on god. God is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of everything. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.

    Elsewhere - you crack me up!! This would be great.........but we don't really need it since God isn't allowed in school anymore.

    Religion has a horrible track record when it tries to counter science.

    I definately agree here! People tend to hide from facts that counter their beliefs - same way I did for so long as a 'dub. It's hard to view things with an open mind because it may mean a radical change in the foundations upon which we have based our lives. The funny thing is, hiding from facts is really evidence of a lack of faith. After all, if you REALLY have faith in God - then why hide from any questions or research? If he is true, he will prove to be true no matter what. It is this very reasoning that helped me escape from the JW's as I realized that if it WAS the truth then they shouldn't be afraid of questioning and researching outside of their accepted material. Yet - they were.

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