by MonkeyPrincess 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
Because if they don't they still get hassled by the local elders, other JW's, and other Jw relatives who aren't as "close". Also some do it to prove how super-spiritual they are; "I don't need to use a loophole, I'm loyal to Jehovah just like if it were anyone else in the congregation." that kind of thing.
That is my experience, anyway. :(
It's funny that your dad said "unless you are dying." If he really believes the JW crap he expounds then --- YOU ARE going to die ANY DAY AT ARMAGEDDON!!! I recently told that to my mom - I asked her how she would be treating me if I only had a few days to live - say from cancer. I think she would come see me on my death bed. So if they really believe that armageddon is just around the corner - then I suggest they hurry up and say their good-bye's to us now!
On another DF thread - someone posted something that meant a lot to me. It was a reference to 2Corinthians - where Paul talks about making people "overly sad" which led them to satan. It seems he was taking back what he said in 1Cor - to judge and DF people - something Jesus NEVER taught or practiced.
Ask your dad for 1 example of Jesus shunning anyone. Jesus NEVER did it. And tell him that for every scripture he can give you in favor of shunning - you will give him 5 or 10 in favor of love, mercy, forgiveness and grace.
Dave,
Basically I don't think Elders really take the time to read the Elders manual. My ex-husband while he was an Elder didn't read it. If something came up he would thumb through it. I remember seeing it, and he had to turn it in when he was deleated as an elder. He kept it hid from me while he was an Elder and we were married. I thought it was kinda funny Elders had a secret manual. I bet they have come up with one more up to date I would think so anyway. Most Elders are really not all that informed as far as I could tell. They pretended to be all knowing but rarely was.
The only family members I saw shunned but not disfellowshipped were ones who took sides with the disfellowshipped person. Suppose it depend on the nuttiness of the congregation itself.
Balsam
The only support they have is in 1Cor.5.
"The Message", which is also on the site that I've linked to, puts it in an interesting way.It's not uncommon for the WTS to have a major doctrine based on a single verse, or a patchwork of unrelated texts.
LittleToe is right. I have had this debate as an elder and since I stepped down and left. The incident of 1 Cor 5 was not a 'judicial commitee' affair .... the note associating instruction was given by one man Paul. His words can be interpreted as "if this person wants to go that way then we have nothing to do with them". This is not how disfellowshipping by judicail committee works. Also, Paul was quick to tell the congregation 'not to discourage this individual' as soon as he wanted to come back to the flock. Again, no judicial committee.
Additionally, the account in Matthew is sometimes cited as example of disfellowshipping - 'let him be as one of the Nations' .... etc. But again this was not a judicial committe approach. Yes the incident was to be taken to the older men but the situation had to do with personal differences. The rift that could result was between the two individuals - nowhere did Jesus say the Older men were to treat the offendng party as one of the Nations.
Eyeslice
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/72204/1151402/post.ashx#1151402
Read this thread started by Englishman...For a short time (according to scriptures) family did not need to be shunned.Then a few years later(according to scriptures)they had to be shunned.So the answer is yes and no....or as the song says"the answer is blowing in the wind"
Yet what did Jesus do?
He gave us the illustration of the Prodigal Son. The father ran to meet his son half way.
He consorted with prostitutes. One of his apostles was a tax collector.
He told us the story of the Good Samaritan.
He talked to strange women at wells.
He healed people with all sorts of infirmities, including lepers.
Jesus' whole life and ministry was about showing love and inclusion.
All of God?s servants face the challenge of keeping clean morally and spiritually. To that end, three powerful enemies must be resisted?Satan, his world, and our sinful fleshly inclinations. (Romans 5:12; 2 Corinthians 2:11; 1 John 5:19) Satan?s world will tempt you to be immoral, will challenge you to adopt its ways, and will offer you material wealth, fame, position, prominence, and power. But those who are determined to pursue true worship resist what Satan offers and remain "without spot from the world." Why? Because they want to stay under the protective and loving care of Jehovah?s clean organization.?James 1:27; 1 John 2:15-17.
Jehovah has provided assistance for any member of the Christian congregation who falls victim to Satan?s temptations because of human weakness. Spiritually qualified elders have been appointed to protect the congregation and lovingly help erring ones to repent of their sin and make the adjustments needed for recovery. Any Christian who gets involved in wrongdoing should be patiently helped to repent and change his ways.?Galatians 6:1, 2; James 5:13-16.
Wait a minute! If the system weren't so flawed, this perfect picture they paint might work. Unfortunately these hypocritical words are just like whitewashed graves full of dead mens bones.
But, I've seen these spiritually qualified elders reprove a convicted child molester. The congregation was admonished NOT to shun him as he was judged repentant.
I've seen a child molester go free because there was only one witness with a clear memory of him raping her.
We've seen elders cover up incidents of child abuse to keep the appearance of a clean congregation.
Baptized servants of Jehovah who deliberately follow a wicked course and refuse to change must be viewed as unrepentant and thus unfit for Christian fellowship. (Compare 1 John 2:19.) Such individuals cannot be allowed to remain in the clean Christian congregation and thereby contaminate it. They must be expelled.
Pure horse manure! Some are favored and get a slap on the wrist. Some are even child molesters with just one witness against them, allowed to roam the KH and talk freely to any all children his heart desires.
The propriety of expelling those who practice wicked deeds can be illustrated by the following situation: Because of the increase of assaults and violent crimes against students, some schools have adopted a policy that "calls for lifetime suspensions for students who use or threaten to use weapons," reports The Globe and Mail, a newspaper in Toronto, Canada. The expelling is done to protect the students who want to benefit from the educational program without being subjected to violent acts.
Stupid analogy! Did the school forbid all other students from contacting the suspended persons? Did they tell them they can't even say hello? Did they threaten all of the other students with similar suspension if they did talk to those expelled? And if students decide to transfer to a different school, are they excommunicated by the remaining student body or faculty for leaving?
Why is it loving to expel an unrepentant wrongdoer from the congregation? Doing so is an expression of love for Jehovah and his ways. (Psalm 97:10) This action shows love for those pursuing a righteous course because it removes from their midst one who could exercise a bad influence on them. It also protects the purity of the congregation. (1 Corinthians 5:1-13) If gross immorality or spiritual uncleanness were permitted to remain in the congregation, it would become contaminated and would be unsuitable for rendering sacred service to Jehovah, who is holy. Furthermore, the wrongdoer?s expulsion may help him to see the seriousness of his wayward course, repent, and make necessary changes and thus be accepted back into the congregation.
Then maybe people, especially those with children, have the right to question elders when they join a new congregation. "In order to be sure Jehovah's spirit is with your congregation, do you have any child molesters with only one witness against them?" "Have you ever covered up wrongdoing because of favoritism or because you wanted your congregation to appear to be clean?" "Have you ever joined a political organization and promoted its philosophy just to get a library card?"
Even if a family member deliberately practices sin and must be expelled from the congregation, there is a way back if he truly repents. This is illustrated by the following example:
Elders had tried to help a person we will call Anna, but she turned to smoking, drinking, and drugs. She was unrepentant and did not remain in the congregation. Before long, however, Anna began to miss the loving fellowship of Jehovah?s clean congregation and prayed to him for help. She admits that she had not fully appreciated how much the elders care about those who stray. Anna began to attend the meetings again, and this led to repentance. Thereafter, she was accepted back into the loving and protective congregation. Once again, Anna is upholding Jehovah?s high standard of morality. She is grateful for the love shown by the elders and also remarks: "You have no idea how much help Christian publications have been to me. Jehovah certainly does look after our needs well."
But this is an exception, not the rule. Face it, if your loved one is disfellowshipped or disassociates the odds are not favorable that they will be back. Don't expect to ever see them if you choose not to. This is especially true for those who have Internet access. Poor Anna. She probably was partying too much to ever get online and do her homework.
Tammy
or as the song says"the answer is blowing in the wind"
or as the WT prints, "the answer depends who the head of the writing committee is " or is that tacking?
Df'g & shunning - scriptual? - one rule? do unto others? ......do they like the shoe on the other foot? absolutely NOT
What's that school called again where elders learn how to read hearts?
will
ps: what's that scripture that has Jesus saying - whatever you did to the least of these you did to me? - Now wouldn't that make you think twice before you treated someone like they were dead disease and you were holy kingshit?
He gave us the illustration of the Prodigal Son. The father ran to meet his son half way.
Swan - good point. There was a Watchtower article end of 1998/early 1999 which I enjoyed when I was 'in' and serving as an elder. I thought at the time it might be leading to a softening of attitudes towards errant ones. I was wrong.
Eyeslice
The propriety of expelling those who practice wicked deeds can be illustrated by the following situation: Because of the increase of assaults and violent crimes against students, some schools have adopted a policy that "calls for lifetime suspensions for students who use or threaten to use weapons," reports The Globe and Mail, a newspaper in Toronto, Canada. The expelling is done to protect the students who want to benefit from the educational program without being subjected to violent acts.
I don't remember threating anyone? At what point does a threat to your beliefs based on the bible become a threat to your life with a deadly weapon?
