His problem was guilt from over-moderation with the herb.
Gumbud
A THORN IN HIS ASS?
by Mecurious? 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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gumby
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mkr32208
I think it's much more likely he had the visions as a result of epilepsy not the other way around... people who go into diabetic comas or have epileptic fits often come out with visions if I write down what they said they saw that DON'T MAKE IT TRUE!
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Mecurious?
Satanus is clearly correct. Even Paul himself said at 1 Corinthians 9:7: "I pummel my body...."
Very astute observation.
I think it's much more likely he had the visions as a result of epilepsy not the other way around... people who go into diabetic comas or have epileptic fits often come out with visions if I write down what they said they saw that DON'T MAKE IT TRUE!
Thats exactly what I was thinking.
M'
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BluesBrother
people who go into diabetic comas or have epileptic fits often come out with visions
My mother was diabetic and suffered comas . I have epilepsy and have had several grand mal seizures. My Mum never mentioned a vision and when I have had a seizure it is a total blackout, like time has stood still for that period.. never a vision . Just my anecdotal experience, I know.
Personally I I think the WT comment on Paul's affliction being blindness or partial sight is as likely to be true as any other theory. Consider ;
He suffered tempory blindness on the road to Damascus. .. At one point he stood before the High Priest and failed to recognize him ....He wrote once "See with what large letters I have written in my own hand"
Not so much fun as the other suggestions though!
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Mecurious?
I have epilepsy and have had several grand mal seizures. My Mum never mentioned a vision and when I have had a seizure it is a total blackout, like time has stood still for that period.. never a vision . Just my anecdotal experience, I know
Just out curiosity does stress exacerbate the condition?
M'
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Kenneson
I heard that he was attracted to younger boys, like Titus and Timothy.
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Leolaia
Okay, let me explain more about the reasoning behind the epilepsy theory. First of all, there are several different kinds of epilepsy. Temporal lobe epilepsy is the type that is most frequently associated with hallucinations and religious or mystical visions. In addition to auditory hallucinations (frequently involving voices; compare the arreta rhémata "inexpressible words" of 2 Corinthians 12:4 and the auditory nature of Paul's divine encounter in Acts 9:4, 22:7-10), TLE also involves visual distortions and hallucinations and psychic phenomena such as depersonalization (that is, feeling detached from oneself), derealization (that is, surroundings appear unreal), and dissociation and autoscopy (that is, seeing the body from the outside). This fits very well with Paul's description of the vision in 2 Corinthians 12:3 as possibly being "apart from the body (khóris tou sómatos)". Such auras are then followed by the seizure proper, which starts out as a complex partial seizure and which may evolve into a generalized tonic-clonic seizure. Paul directly linked having a "thorn in the flesh" with the visionary experiences:
"And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn (skolops) in the flesh (sarki), an angel of Satan (angelos Satana) to buffet (kolaphizé) me, to keep me from exalting myself. Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me" (2 Corinthians 12:7).
From this text, it would appear that every time Paul had a revelation or vision, it was followed by a visit from an "angel of Satan". This phrase is significant, because epileptic attacks were specifically attributed to demons and evil spirits. We may readily recall the story of the epileptic demoniac in Mark 9:14-29 (cf. Matthew 17:14-21, Luke 9:37-42), who went into "violent convulsions," foamed at the mouth, and "fell like a corpse and lay writhing" when having an attack and this was attributed to the work of an "unclean spirit". Ancient Greek and Roman writers, such as those who followed Galen or Hippocrates, similarly attributed epilepsy to attacks by the gods or supernatural forces. The allusion to an angelos Satana in 2 Corinthians 12:7, and the fact that it prevented Paul from enjoying and boasting in his revelatory experiences, is a key piece of evidence that Paul suffered from a form of epilepsy. Another indication is Paul's reference to his illness in Galatians:
"You know that it was because of a bodily illness (astheneian tes sarkos) that I preached the gospel to you the first time and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise me or spit (exeptusate) at me, but you received me as an angel of God (angelon theou), as Christ Jesus himself" (Galatians 4:13-14).
Here Paul is referring to the hardship his illness posed to the Christians in Galatia, and expresses his appreciation that they did not despise him or spit at him -- which presumably would be the way people with this "bodily illness" would be treated. This also fits very well with epilepsy. Among the Greeks and Romans, spitting was thought to be a preventative measure to avoid infection by evil spirits and specifically with those causing epileptic fits. Plautus (Captivi 18) called epilepsy the "disease before which one spits (morbus qui sputatur)," and Pliny (Natural History, 38.4) also wrote: "We spit out the epilepsy (despuimus comitiales morbos), that is, we avert the contagion". Paul connects the contrary-to-normal reaction of the Galatian Christians to their reception of him as "an angel of God," which in context suggests that ordinarily people would have received him as quite the opposite, and the parallelism evokes the "angel of Satan" of 2 Corinthians 2:7.
Another obvious piece of evidence is the fact that Paul suddenly fell to the ground during his revelation, as Acts 9:4 suggests. This compares well with the epileptic child of Mark 9:20 who "fell to the ground" during his epileptic attack. It is also important to consider post-seizure effects. People with temporal lobe seizures usually experience a postictal period of confusion and fatigue and if the seizures are caused by infections or brain tumor, there may be other symptoms as well. Postictal fatigue would handily account for Paul's use of the word asthenés "weak" in 2 Corinthians 10:10, 12:9 to characterize his condition, and the most common postictal symptom is headache which occurs in about 45% of epileptics, most frequently after tonic-clonic seizures. The pain can range from mild to severe and these headaches tend to last between 6 to 24 hours, or even longer. There are numerous indications in 2 Corinthians that Paul may have suffered from postictal headaches. In 2 Corinthians 2:7, Paul links his "revelations" (i.e. epileptic auras) and visits from "an angel of Satan" (i.e. the seizure itself) with having a "thorn in the flesh (skolops té sarki)". The use of the term sarki indicates a physical condition, and skolops "thorn, stake" specifically evokes sharp pain -- like a sharp thorn or end of a fish-hook sticking into the flesh. Compare Ezekiel 28:24 in the LXX: "For the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier (skolops) to prick or a thorn to hurt them". The experience apparently was so painful that Paul thrice entreated the Lord to make the demon "depart from me" (v. 8). 2 Corinthians 2:7 also employs the verb kolaphizé which means "to strike or beat with a fist". It occurs in Mark 14:65 in a description of Jesus' beating prior to his crucifixion. Since Paul directly linked this experience of pain with the experience of visions, the possibility that Paul suffered from postictal headaches is appealing. We may also note the tradition reported by Tertullian (writing c. AD 190) who claimed that the "thorn in the flesh" described by Paul was "pain, as they say, of the ear or the head" (De Pudicitia, 13.16-17).
Postictal headaches however are not the only kind of headache someone with epilepsy may have. Ictal headaches may occur during the seizure itself, either as a sudden onset of sharp pain or as the cumulation of a building headache. Since Paul descibed the "thorn in the flesh" in the same breath as the "angel of Satan," it is possible to interpret the headache as part of the seizure experience itself -- but the rhetorical phrasing hardly warrants such an idea. Migraines also rarely occur with epilepsy (Migraine Epilepsy Syndrome, or MES), particularly as a pre-ictal headache. The temporary blindness that Paul experienced in Acts 9:8 is consistent with migraine auras ("Though his eyes were open he could see nothing"). On a personal note, I myself have experienced temporary blindness from a migraine and it was a very scary experience. Some have also seen evidence of a recurring problem with vision or blindness in the passage quoted above from Galatians. After making reference to his "physical illness" and noting how wonderful the Galatians treated him, Paul went on to say: "If possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me" (Galatians 4:15). If Paul had occasional lapses of vision, associated with his headaches and other problems, this would explain the rather strange statement here.
That pretty much sums up the evidence for the theory that Paul had temporal lobe epilepsy and/or migraines. Since migraines and TLE can have the same etiological cause (such as brain tumor), this theory would neatly explain the visions, the apparent epileptic-like symptoms, the recurring pain (naturally interpreted to refer to headaches), and the temporary blindness. However, the explanation is surely not without its own problems, and I am sure other rather plausible explanations exist.
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under74
kenneson- "I heard that he was attracted to younger boys, like Titus and Timothy." Have you been reading Gore Vidal lately?BTW, I get migraines and sometimes I'll remember a glimpse of something or a thought like "I understand it all now" but after the migrain is gone I don't have a clue....migraines caused by brain tumors?--did I mention I'm a hypochondriac too?
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Leolaia
under74....In rare cases, yes, tumors can cause migraines (through inflammation), you can google on the subject to find out more.
Mecurious....Did my response help shed a little light on your question? If Paul was an epileptic, that would explain further why his opponents thought he was demonized and why he was a little coy in naming the infirmity -- though saying he had an "angel of Satan" to harass him is pretty suggestive anyway.
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Mecurious?
Mecurious....Did my response help shed a little light on your question? If Paul was an epileptic, that would explain further why his opponents thought he was demonized and why he was a little coy in naming the infirmity -- though saying he had an "angel of Satan" to harass him is pretty suggestive anyway.
In addition to auditory hallucinations (frequently involving voices; compare the arreta rhémata "inexpressible words" of 2 Corinthians 12:4 and the auditory nature of Paul's divine encounter in Acts 9:4, 22:7-10),
Yes, thank you. At the very least It sheds more light on the subject.
M'