Isn't it ironic that you can have a more meaningful and comprehensive bible discussion here in five minutes than in an entire hour of "bible study" at the KH?
I need the full page illustration of possible impalement
YES WILLY' IT IS TRULY AMAZING.
THE WBTS DELIVERS COPYRIGHTED "BULL SHIT" TO THE BELIEVERS WEEKLY.
WHEN THERE ARE MANY SOURCES FROM WHICH ACCURATE OR AT LEAST CONFLICTING INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE.
RATHER THAN CORRECTING THE INCORRECT THEY USE FRAGMENTS OF INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THE INCORRECT, THUS TURNING IT INTO A LIE.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO ADMIT A MISTAKE. IF THEY DO IT IS GOING TO CHALLENGE THEIR CLAIMS TO BEING THE ONLY ORG. THAT GOD WORKS THROUGH.
WHEN IT BECOMES ACCEPTABLE TO LIE IN ONE AREA IT SLOWLY BECOMES ACCEPTABLE TO LIE IN ALL AREAS OF THEIR BELIEFS TEACHINGS AND DEMANDS.
WHEN ONE LIES ENOUGH TO THE ONES HE CLAIMS TO LOVE, IT CAUSES THE LIAR TO DEMEAN AND LOOK DOWN ON THE ONES HE CLAIMS TO LOVE.
WHEN THE LOVED ONES CHALLENGE THE LIAR, HE REBUFFS THEIR CHALLENGE WITH ANGER AND HATE.
WHICH IS WHAT I THINK WE ARE SEEING NOW FROM THE WBTS.
UNFORTUNATLY, THIS SAME THOUGHT PROCESS SLOWLY SEEPS DOWN INTO THE MINDS OF THEIR FOLLOWERS. HENCE THE SEVERE, ABNORMAL ACTIONS THEY TAKE WITH THEIR LOVED ONES WHO WERE AT ONE TIME BELIEVERS ALSO.
THEY CAN NOT ACCEPT THE ACCURATE, BECAUSE IT DISTURBS THEM. MAKES THEM UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THEIR OWN BELIEFS BEING CHALLENGED.
SO ON A SMALLER BUT MORE DAMAGING DEFENCE OF THEIR ERRONEOUS BELIEFS, THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT OR INVESTIGATE.
THEY TAKE THE EASY WAY OUT AND TURN ON THEIR LOVED ONES.
DON'T TELL ME THE REALITIES, DON'T SHOW ME PROOF,IT MAY DISTURB ME
The watchtower is pretty clear that they have no Idea how Jesus died they just don't like the + shape
No, that's not what they say. They say, quite dogmatically, "This is the manner in which Jesus was impaled," after showing a Lipsius drawing of a crux simplex. They also have said on the matter....
**w51, 3/15, p. 190**
"The above agrees with the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures in its Appendix, page 769, in saying that the instrument upon which Jesus was nailed was a stake without a crossbeam, and not the religiously represented 'cross'; and that the Greek word used for that instrument in ancient time meant a 'stake' and not the conventional religious cross." Explicitly stated that Jesus died only on a stake without a crossbeam.
**w57, 3/15, pp. 165-168**
"Certainly in view of the foregoing it cannot honestly be stated that Christ without doubt was nailed on the traditionally shaped cross. And it is of striking interest to note that it is those authorities that lean toward the view that Christ was nailed on such a cross that admit doubt. But those who hold that Christ died on a simple stake or pole are not in doubt. Says one such: 'Jesus died on a simple deathstake: In support of this there speak (a) the then customary usage of this means of execution in the Orient, (b) indirectly the history itself of Jesus? sufferings and (c) many expressions of the early Church fathers.'?The Cross and Crucifixion, Hermann Fulda.... Thus we see the Scriptures, the facts of history and reason uniting to testify that Christ did not die on a cross but upon an upright pole or stake" Explicitly stated that Jesus died only on a stake.
**w60, 2/15, pp. 125-127.**
"Jesus Christ was killed on an upright stake that had no crosspiece.... It was this simple stake that Jesus was hanged on with his hands nailed above his head." Explicitly stated with Jesus died on a stake without a crossbeam.
**g74, 9/22, pp. 27-28**
"Was this "stake" a cross? No. In fact, the Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross....There is nothing to imply that in the case of Jesus? impalement it meant a stake with a crossbeam. So, the evidence indicates that Jesus did not die on the traditional cross. Hence, Jehovah?s witnesses, who once had a representation of the cross on the front cover of their journal The Watchtower, no longer use such a symbol. Nor do they give the stake veneration." Explicitly stated that Jesus did not die on a stake with a crossbeam.
**Rbi8, pp. 1577-1578**
"Evidence is, therefore, completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at right angles." Explicitly states that no evidence exists that Jesus died on a cross, thus: Strongly implied that Jesus died only on a stake.
**g84, 6/22, pp. 15-17**
"The appendix concludes: 'The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.' With its roots in ancient pagandom, and the evidence that Christ was not impaled on the traditional cross, nor did the early Christians use such a symbol, one is led to this conclusion: The cross is not really Christian." Explicitly stated that Jesus died only on a stake without a crossbeam.
**Insight on the Scriptures, 1988, Vol. 1, pp. 1190-1191**
"Stau·ros´ in both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a "cross" made of two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile, or pole, as might be used for a fence, stockade, or palisade." Strongly implied that Jesus died only on a stake.
**rs, 1989, pp. 89-93**
"Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross." Explicitly concludes that Jesus died on a stake without a crossbeam.
**w89, 5/1, pp. 23-28.**
"Another Greek word, xy´lon, is used in the Bible to refer to the instrument upon which Jesus died. This word helps to show that stau·ros´ was an upright stake without a crossbeam." Strongly implied that Jesus died on a stake without a crossbeam.
**gt, 1991, p. 125.**
"Jesus is now stretched out on the stake with his hands placed above his head. The soldiers then pound large nails into his hands and into his feet. He wrenches with pain as the nails pierce flesh and ligaments." Strongly implied that Jesus' stake did not have a crossbeam for the arms.
There are lots of ways to impale a person. What if the JWs believe jesus was hung on a traditional cross upside down?
But they don't. The Society does not go on and on about whether Jesus was hung upside down or right side up. The whole point in their manifold discussions on cross vs. stake is whether there was a second beam affixed to the stake. If they admit doubt in the matter, it is not whether there was a crossbeam (of which they have no doubt) but rather whether Jesus had his hands nailed as well, or a nail through both hands, whether he was impaled through his body by the stake, and so forth.
It's a JW tradition and because you can't prove other wise they are keeping it.
No, they are keeping it no matter what could be proven. For instance, it is easily provable that the word crux could refer to a two-beamed cross before the first century A.D., despite the Society's claims to the contrary, but that doesn't stop them from making such statements. And as for biblical evidence that Jesus died on a cross, again I come to John 19:17 as the scripture that most clearly indicates this -- for it was the patibulum (occasionally referred to as stauros by Greek writers) that was carried by prisoners prior to their execution, not the stipes itself. In order to conclude that Jesus did not die on a cross, the Society would have to contort a well-attested Roman practice into something that is otherwise unheard of, if not, impossible.
The fact that they claim to be the only ones to have and BE the truth, how they ARRIVE at that statement should always be under scrutiny. All the misquotes of others that they print along with their own double twists on their own printed material begs this.
Yes, that's the whole reason I examined this issue. Of course, from a theological point of view, it doesn't matter at all what shape the instrument was on which Jesus died. But because the Society makes such a big issue out of it, and misquotes and misrepresents sources to shore up their position, and pass it off as religious TRUTH, it is certainly important to examine their claims and the process by which they support them with evidence.
Does anyone know where one can obtain a translation of the captions next to the relevant illustrations in Justus Lipsius' book?
LL all I see is them giving opinion. It is basically saying some obscure fact that make a possibility then stating this is what they believe. In my book printing something does not make an arguement. For example I could print seragate invitro fetilization is adultry. Thats not an arguement. If they print "Jesus died on a pole" , that does nothing for their arguement that he did. I mean one citation says basically the equivalent of humans are mammals, dogs are not human, and therefore dogs are not mammals.
Maybe I am reading these quotes wrong, but I think there is a difference in knowing vs believing. The watchtower likes to make them synonyms. Most of their arguements start off there is controversy regarding X, and therefore you should believe Y just because we say so. Evolution, stem cells, IVF, cloning, neo babylonian chronology whatever they are out of there league in. If the watchtower was allowed to tell JWs how to vote (they can't legaly) they would say something like, "there is a controversy about bush vs kerry. bush has ridden in a fighter airplane. Vote bush." I hope i am not sounding hostile.
The WTS deliberately lied to us, and then printed books with quotes that were lies to cover their tracks of previous lies. Their sources are bogus and their scholars were class clowns and unknowns, and even these were misquoted. I once said shame on them, no more!
No arguement there, but big tobacco did the same thing in a court of law. So this type of thing is not unusual.
One thing I do not understand is the JW use of the world "impale". Typically that word is resurved for something besides being nailed to a tree.
As an execution form, impalement typically meant being pierced bodilly, through either the torso, or more gruesomely, though the anus (or vagina in rare cases) with a sharpened stake that exited the upper body, most likely through a shoulder. With either method, victims could be supported upon the sharpened stake as it was raised to vertical, taking a long time to die. Vlad Tepes was rather fond of this method. I don't see any other religions mentioning Jesus' impalement. One wonders about the Watchtower's fascination with the word, when they don't really even tell their believers what it implies.
Cross or stake, what does it mean to my faith anyway?
Can someone enlighten me?
Symbollically the Cross has very strong metaphorical meanings, of sacrifice, change, transormation, even coitus. However the most important thing is that the Witnesses are deceiving their followers and alienating them from the mainstream for no good reason.