Interesting quotes. I did not remember those.
JW Wrongdoers Unable To Pray?
by Englishman 18 Replies latest jw friends
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Amazing1914
Hi ezekiel3,
Interesting post. Those are relatively newer articles, but they resemble articles going back into the 1980s and 70s.
And only baptized believers have an unrestricted privilege of approaching the King Eternal in prayer.w90 5/15 p. 12 Fear Jehovah, the Hearer of Prayer
Oddly enough, this article deliberately defies the teaching in the Bible where God heard the prayers of Cornelius, who was not baptized, nor had he heard the teachings about Christ. Yet, God accepted his prayer and faith, then anointed him. Later, the Apostle Peter was dispatched to teach Cornelius and his entire household about Christ. At one time, there was a Watchtower article in the 1970s that discussed this, and accepted that God hears prayers of unbaptized believers. But, the Watchtower organization has become even more apostate than it used to be. - Jim
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shamus
It just amazes me to see how many rules they really do put on the 'believers'. Funny; I never noticed while I was in.
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FlyingHighNow
Totally unable to pray..psychological, perhaps?
Remember how they used all kinds of biblical examples of times when the Israelites goofed up and god did not hear their prayers? Wasn't there one about clouds getting in the way or something?
I hardly ever felt worthy of being heard, so I hardly ever prayed. When I did pray my mind would always wonder to something else. It didn't matter how good I was being, I still felt I wasn't worthy.
To this day I have a tough time praying. I have to force myself. Thank you, WTBTS for ruining an outlet of comfort I enjoyed as a child and early teen. That Zeph. 2:3 scripture does a lot to make people feel it's a next to hopeless feat, to please Jehovah enough, to be concealed in the day of his anger.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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Confucious
The WT way...
There is NO WAY of coming to Jehovah without guilt unless you lived an unabashed double life.
You preach all day about being clean, but you yourself know very well that you're wacking off thinking about the hot married sister sitting in the KH.
It's part of the guilt equals works thing. -
Mutz
I couldn't be bothered to pray after a couple of years, it felt like a waste of time. Why would Jehavah need to hear from me all the time, he must get sick of it. :)
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blondie
Zeke, I remember using that quote about prayer being restricted for non-JWs as well as the QFR regarding praying for a DF'd person. That created more questions than it answered in my area.
As to Cornelius and praying, the WTS says that dedication is necessary not baptism for people's prayers to be heard:
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w90 1/15 p. 6 Whose Prayers Are Answered? ***Before Cornelius was baptized, his prayers only "ascended as a remembrance before God." (Acts 10:4) However, by making a dedication to God on the basis of his belief in Jesus? ransom sacrifice, and being baptized, Cornelius unreservedly gave himself to Jehovah. This established a wonderful closeness between God and this devout man?a relationship giving Cornelius the unrestricted privilege of prayer. (James 4:8) He could approach his heavenly Father through Christ Jesus with the expectation of being heard. That is what happens to all who dedicate themselves to God through Christ and get baptized. They too have the unrestricted privilege of prayer.
Yet they say this:
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w90 6/1 pp. 18-19 Walk in the Fear of Jehovah ***Though Cornelius feared God, he was not a Jewish proselyte. In a vision, an angel told him that his prayers had "ascended as a remembrance before God." Even though Cornelius was not then dedicated to Jehovah, he did receive an answer to his prayer.
Yet, the WTS says this:
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w02 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***In the final analysis, it is not for humans to decide which prayers God hears.
Here's another experience:
w64 9/15 pp. 560-561 "Carry On Prayer on Every Occasion in Spirit" ***For example, recently it was experienced in one congregation of Jehovah?s witnesses that, whenever a certain male member was asked to offer prayer for the congregation at its meetings, he repeatedly would fail to ask for forgiveness of sins. It became rather noticeable as a ?hindering? to the prayer. Later this man?s course of conduct came to be in question. It was found that this minister in fact had been morally unclean all this time. Though married, and his wife being an active member of the congregation, he had had immoral relations with another woman on the outside. His "hindered" prayer actually led to his exposure and final disfellowshiping.
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Oroborus21
I am weary of any broad statements of generality.
Even if dad had double the experience he couldn't really say that "invariably" this was the case. AT most he could say of all the JCs that he sat on this was the case.
The reality is that there are many cases that a person in a JC doesn't express that they had trouble approaching Our Father in prayer.
In my own case, it was precisely that I felt that everything was Kosher sometime after my sin that the Elders could not accept. :-)
But really think about it. If your Father's claim/assertion was true how does that jive with the very real fact that right at this moment, there are many "wrongdoers/sinners" in the Organization, Elders, MSs and Brothers that are giving a public prayer for the congregation or book study, or field service group, etc. Are they stuttering, do they suddenly choke up with a guilty conscience and are unable to finish?
NO.
it is actually MAGICAL THINKING to to believe that there is something (God's Active Force aka Holy Spirit) that reaches out and prevents a sinner from praying.
It is also just plane silly. After all if anything PRAYING to God is precisely for the SINNER is it not? The righteous man is less in need of a conversation with our lord than the sinner is don't you think? So why would God create any kind of barrier to an activity that is only going to help the sinner? He wouldn't and doesn't.
I will close however, by saying that I do believe what you dad is saying is true to the extent that this phenomena is very real. JWs specifically teach and promote the idea that one's prayers can be hampered by sins. This serves several purposes including guilt and possibly being a deterent to sinning and possibly having some effects on self-reporting sins to the Elders.
Persons who have come to believe and really taken to heart this teaching from JWs may indeed come to feel and believe that the way of prayer to God is a closed avenue to them unless they are "right in their relationship to Him."
If any do feel this way they should come to understand that Jesus is the mediator, that is the way to and through which we approach Jehovah God and only Jesus can bar the way, not any man or institution of man.
-Eduardo
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bikerchic
Blondie this quote made me think:
As to Cornelius and praying, the WTS says that dedication is necessary not baptism for people's prayers to be heard:
I can't remember how many experiences I've heard from the platform at assemblies and meetings about someone being down and out, given to the last resort prayed to god and voilà a JW was knocking at their door. Now am I to think that they had in their heart already made a dedication to Jehovah when they didn't even know of him before the knock at the door? I think not.
Oroborus21 your statement makes perfect sense to me:
It is also just plane silly. After all if anything PRAYING to God is precisely for the SINNER is it not? The righteous man is less in need of a conversation with our lord than the sinner is don't you think? So why would God create any kind of barrier to an activity that is only going to help the sinner? He wouldn't and doesn't.
And FWIW I can't think of a time when Jehovah spoke to me no matter how sincerely I prayed, prayer after prayer after silly prayer. I do know that somehow I felt better after clearing my conscience but then I could feel the same way after talking to one of my girlfriends too, I really couldn't distinguish the difference and have come to realize it's really all up to the individual because there is no god or magical being who will really listen and help us here on earth.
Flyin':
I hardly ever felt worthy of being heard, so I hardly ever prayed. When I did pray my mind would always wonder to something else. It didn't matter how good I was being, I still felt I wasn't worthy.
LOL, I used to do the mind wondering thing too, or I would fall asleep in the middle of prayer and then wake up and apologize and start all over again only to fall asleep again! Hey maybe god was just mad at me for being so disrespectful and that's why he didn't talk to me or answer my prayers?
E-man psychological, I do think so and you can get the same benefit from talking to a friend or a shrink the friend is usually cheaper and will actually converse with you.
Kate