John 10:10

by Dawn 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • frankiespeakin



    I agree with you re: GJohn. But how do you think this affects the present topic?

    I think the present topic was brought up because someone really believes these were jesus's actual words and so has faith in them because they actually beleive they were jesus authentic words.

    That being the case I thought i would add this so they will not worry about these words and their application since these gospels clearly are not his word in any shape or form.. and that they are just cleverly thought out words from a dishonest source.

    And I think it is very interesting and that we should remember many scholars agree that the GJ is high on the list as far as clearly evidence redaction.

  • Markfromcali

    Yes Narkissos, although it looks like that one is missing some - there are supposed to be 48. Here are a few words from the introduction (also not there) concerning interpretation and the like:

    If one clings to what others have said and tries to understand Zen by explanation, he is like a dunce who thinks he can beat the moon with a pole or scratch an itching foot from the outside of a shoe. It will be impossible after all.
  • frankiespeakin

    I think was appropriate to our subject:

    I don't think Jesus ever said that,, it seems to be a sales pitch to join and stay joined to that particular Christian community that was responsible for writting this so-called Gospel Of John. The thiefs are no-doubt those that don't strickly hold to the teachings of this particular community and have gained some converts from among them,,this redaction was probably an effort to stave off further sheep stealling.

    So called "john's gospel" is the most gnostic gospel because the writer's were heavely gnostic and this gospel is in opposition to the other 3,, all though there were more than three when this one was writen. These writers would claim there gospel to be writen by somebody famous back at the time these things supposedly happened just to gain authority and control.

  • frankiespeakin


    I think some teachings in the gnostic gospels may have been influence by zen or what ever it was called back then. It seem likely in the quotes Narkisso posted.

  • Markfromcali

    Maybe Frankie, who knows. It wouldn't be zen specifically as it started with Bodhidharma in the 6th century, but I don't think it's so important to look at that and go with the oldest school or whatever. Thing is if any of it has anything to do with truth, then you'll see commonalities peeking out here and there, and two sources can come to the same 'conclusion' independently. What's more is if it's about understanding rather than who has the answers - well thus the quote earlier in the thread.

  • myelaine


    I also believe that some Christians bring undue trouble on themselves by being arrogant, rude, and generally obnoxious.


    Would you include the apostle Paul in this group of Christians? And if so, was his work and ministry then unnecessary?


  • Narkissos


    I find something amazing, not with the Bible only but with any worthwhile literature (and I DON'T mean the Watchtower): you never read it twice the same way.

    I began reading the Bible as a JW; I later read it as a, say, spiritualist Christian; I went on reading it as a critic; I still read it as an atheist. Yet I enjoyed it all the time.

    The Greek mythology outlived the actual belief in the gods and goddesses of the Greek pantheon.

    I can read a fairy tale with my daughter and really enjoy it with her, although our way of reading is necessarily different. I don't see the need to insist that "this is not true". She does a pretty good job of handling her different levels of "reality". If she had a problem with that (it may happen sometimes) I would discuss it with her of course.

    On the other issue, I know very little about Buddhism, but I do believe that mysticism is largely transcultural, regardless of actual literary dependence. When you read early Christian gnostics (in which I include the Johannine writings just as you do), middle-age Catholic mystics, Jewish Qabbalah, Moslem Sufis or Chinese taoists, you do hear variations on the same tune.

  • myelaine

    Ecclesiastes 5:18-20

    Here is what I have seen: It is good and fitting for one to eat and drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor in which he toils under the sun all the days of his life which God has given him; for it is his heritage.

    As for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, and given him power to eat of it, to receive his heritage and rejoice in his labor--this is the gift of God.

    For he will not dwell unduly on the days of his life, because God keeps him busy with the joy of his heart.

  • LittleToe


    Would you include the apostle Paul in this group of Christians?

    Possibly, but that would be hard to determine, having few sources to judge him on. I had far more modern examples in mind...

    And if so, was his work and ministry then unnecessary?

    Far from it

  • myelaine

    Little Toe,

    Acts 10:15

    "And a voice spoke to him a second time, "What God has cleansed you MUST not call common."

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