No New Order?

by techton 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • techton

    I'm a newbie here...but I remember posts about Jesus never having mentioned the prospect of eternal life on personal theory is that as the numbers of JW's began to go past 144,000 in the mid-1930s, it was felt that an explanation had to be offered to the rank-and-file, and the idea of the "great crowd" living eternally on earth fit the much so that an explosion of numbers began because no one wanted to be left out on the prospect of eternal life in paradise.

    If a business can tell people something, and it dramatically increases traffic, isn't the temptation too great? Wouldn't, in time, the benefits seem to outweigh the negatives (such as a compromise to honesty, and, in fact, wouldn't the original lie be lost to the sands of time?

    My Dad (a widower, who has been in the org. for more than 50 years), grieves that not all of his family will "be together" in the New Order, as he thinks meeting attendance, service, etc. is necessary to "serve Jehovah".

    I know the U.N., child abuse issues, and other scandals are important information to know about. It just seems to me that we need to go to the source of this mess, the attraction of life in the "New Order", freedom from death, etc. and get a handle on how to correct this misconception first. Or am I off base?

  • Monski

    It all comes back to the real basis for religion. Have a look at most of the religions out there and you will find that their foundations are based on the desire of the important people to control or influence the underlings. DO THIS OR YOU WILL DIE seems to be the overriding teaching. Power and control is the object, nothing else. People live their lives in the constant belief that there is something better if they toe the line and, therefore waste their lives in the process. You only get one shot at life so use it to the full!

  • Terry

    In the Christian religion there is an obsessive fixation on unworthiness seeking approval.

    Christians are dung; worthless miscreants, the walking dead who deserve nothing but misery. Yet, there is hope; there a chance!

    Their blighted existence can be held in esteem IF ONLY.......fill in the blank.

    The hoop a Christian jumps through depends on which group is joined. The truly self-hating choose religions that put endless pressures on them to conform. They live, as it were, on the precipice of extinction.

    The more comfortable Christians merely "believe" their way to heaven or paradise.

    Anybody willing to view themselves as nothing already has a genuine problem. Self-esteem aside, having an Authority Figure dominating them and dispensing favors like Pez candy, smacks of Freudian confusion over parental issues.

    New Order, Paradise, Heavenly Hope, Nirvana, Bliss, Valhalla--the price is very high: trade THIS life (the real one) for the one to come(imaginary). Caveat emptor.

  • techton

    The concept of delayed gratification is certainly a money-maker and motivator...People are told - if you go to college or university, and sacrifice for 4 years (or more) then things will just fall into place, and people will fall over themselves to hire you, etc., when the truth is, what matters most is, can you think on your feet, can you overcome setbacks, can your handle disappointments, and so on.

    I tried to reason with a friend of mine, who had stopped going to meetings, and now spoke of returning....I pointed out that if you went to a meeting 100 years ago, there was no talk of eternal life on earth, and, in fact, if you insisted talking about it, you could be "marked" or my frustration, he went back, because, he said, "they're the only one's using Jehovah God's name" etc. etc. I think it was more of a case of family, business partner being JW, not wanting to "buck the tide"

    Back to my question : Why aren't we (thinking people) cracking down on this harder? As I asked my Dad, where are the "Millions Now Living (in the 30s) Will Never Die? " Nearly every person that played that game is in the grave - even he had to admit that.

    I don't want to break anyone down. I just think this is the best place to start....pointing out how recent this "everlasting life in paradise" business is.

  • garybuss

    It's almost like they are "Captives of a Concept".

    Your post topic is the subject of this book. You are right on track.

    This book gives us the ammunition in easy to get Watchtower publications to show how the sale of the concept is made and how repeat sales are made in the face of huge disconfirmations. Once a Witness has "bought" the concept, the whole bottom of the boat can fall out and a Witness still sees it all floating along just fine and anyone who points to the bottom missing on the boat is defective and errant to be avoided.

    Great topic, Thanks! GaryB

  • jgnat

    I usually don't use our ultimate demise as a debating topic, as there is no way to test out our differing faiths. At least in no meangful way where we can come back and tell about it. Every time I try to talk to my JW hubby about it, we go in circles. He cannot imagine enjoying himself in some sexless cloudy aetherial existence, and demands to know why I don't think the earth will be used? Sure, I have no problem with the concept of a revitalized earth, but I see no reason to wait for Armageddon to make it happen. My favorite website on the lure of the Paradise dream is here:

    For your dad, perhaps reassuring him that surely a loving Jehovah would make allowance for "weak ones", will help him get past his grief.

  • Leolaia

    I believe that the older view was that there was a secondary spiritual class, not limited to 144,000, that also went to heaven -- as well as resurrected "ancient worthies" and the "millions now living" in the world who become citizens of the Paradise Earth (with a reconstituted Israel, and Jerusalem as the expected capital).

    The weird thing about the Jonadab typology is that the type consisted of a people that resided as a tiny minority within a much larger Israel/Judah, but the antitype -- the "great crowd" of Jehovah's Witnesses -- numbering 6 million worldwide, far outnumbers "spiritual Israel" which is held to be limited to 144,000 souls. Just another detail about how bogus the concept is.

  • shotgun

    Right upto 1934 they taught the "Great multitude" spoken of in Rev 7 and 19 were a lower class of heavenly inductees.

  • techton

    Gary: Thank you for the information on the book.. I checked the table of contents and it looks absolutely fascinating......This thinking on how the "New Order" was the "big lie" has been rumbling around in my mind for quite some can be sure I will read the book ASAP. Thanks

  • czarofmischief

    There was a quote in "Crisis of Conscience" about what the governing Body actually believed on ap ersonal level. In the end, they had no dogma, only faith in mercy... which they have failed to show...


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