God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Panda

  Oh Please Time is a human endeavour to explain stars and planets and well, capitalist hourly wages.

  Time as we view it today remains a hypothetical construct. Yeah really. Good grief people only began owning watches 100 years ago (maybe a bit more) you know the pocket watch, then wrist watch. Why? Because of the industrial revolution. Things needed to have a measure other than sunrise, high noon and sunset. No hokus pokus Bible stuff in time at all. The trains (I blame the Brits for this) had to run on a schedule. Otherwise pile ups would abound.

  Bible time was nowhere near accurate. These were a group of nomads and their stories. A blink of an eye could mean after your eyes shut to sleep and then when they opened. There is no consistency in Bible time keeping. Why? Because the damn book wasn't meant to be used scientifically. Seasons and holy days were established by constellations . You know the earth turns and different constellations and galaxies and planets become visable. So then you know okay its time to celebrate the end of harvest and the beginning of hunting season. These people always had their heads in the clouds.

  I guess by the question "God and the concept of time" a simple explanation would be that both are human construction to order a society. Of course I'm just guessing.
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  myelaine

  dear Panda,

  How many years before the invention of the watch, do you think they started calculating time by the same sun, moon and stars that have been there since the beginning?
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  zoolander

  Hey myelaine , gotta agree with you there if man is all there is we?re in a lot of trouble.

  If we live in a 2 x 3 = 6 kinda world our life is predetermined, forordained and predictable and I guess people would have a disposition one way or another (suddenly I had a vision of guys in white pointy sheets). I don?t understand election in this context???

  If this is our world then it seems a bit pointless to me.

  In the 2 x a = b kinda world it is possible to predict ?b? when we or God knows the value of ?a?. Something is foreordained if God or us knowingly inserts the value of ?a? or even ?b?.

  As regards time, I don?t think its existence is reliant on us measuring it and if God created time I would want to know what he was doing the day before.

  To add to czarofmischief post I found this quote

  Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle One of the basic ideas behind quantum theory/physics/mechanics is the H.U.C. It states, more or less, that the more you know about one aspect of a subatomic particle, the less you can know about the other. This means the more you know about the velocity of a particle, the less you can possible know about it's position. Remember, velocity is speed and direction. This means that you can know with 90% certainty the position of a electron or whatever, but then you can only know with 10% certainty its velocity. Or vise versa, or 50-50, or not know anything at all (the easiest). With H.U.C., a Bose-Einstein Condensate can be formed. By supercooling atoms, they start to move very slowly. This means that you can be pretty sure that the particles have a velocity of near 0. Since you know this with a good deal of certainty, you can't know where it's position is very well, so the atoms become fuzzy and form one big atom called a Bose-Einstein Condensate.
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  ezekiel3

  Myelaine:

  Thank you for your contribution. I had to read your posts carefully to understand them. So if I make wrong assumptions please forgive me. I understand that you believe in God and Christ, even as part of the Trinity, and that humans have free will. But your comments seem to contradict each other. Please explain:

  He will have infinite foreknowledge on that day as well because He knows how it all ends... we only get a glimpse of what's happening next in our "life" with God.

  Without His intervention, according to his Wisdom, mankind could and would destroy themselves.

  Intervention is a powerful word. If God changed or intervened world events, how can man also make independant choices?? According to your logic humans will destroy themselves unless God steps in and overides their choice to do so.

  God created man and therefore He initiated time but we set it in motion for us the moment God created us.

  I'm afraid that the "measurement of time" (a more accurate term than just "time") existed long before any human appeared on Earth. Any intellegent life (including God and angels) would be able to use time as a tool.

  With God (Pride in God,as your Father) and His purpose for your life in front of you, your ability to see where you are going will be greatly increased.

  Do you realize that be saying this you betray "free-will?" You seem to say, "God has a purpose, a destination. When you understand God you will know where you will end up."

  So if I don't understand God then I don't get to choose:

  • To live forever in a paradise earth
  • To live in heaven as an angel
  • To not go to hell as a sinner
  • Or whatever other devine reward you may believe in?

  Another way to look at this is, if I understand God's purpose for my life and do not want that purpose, can I choose to live for another purpose? Don't forget to read my favorite chapter in the Bible, Ezekiel 3 (vs 17-21) before you answer that.

  A basic Christain dogma is if you don't follow God's purpose you will die or go to hell. THAT IS NOT FREE-WILL, it is the most expensive choice you can make, IT WILL COST YOU YOUR LIFE.
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  ezekiel3

  By the way, for all you interested in the concept of time, and I pondered this all weekend...

  I know I have simplified "time" inaccurately with the aim of establishing the concept that God knows all from beginning to end.

  I stated in my opening comments that we are comparable to a 2-dimensional painting and God is like a 3-dimensional human. To further define this: we are trapped in the present. God is not. God created the beginning and has a purpose and/or has forordained the end. God has proven by prophecy that he can pinpoint events that have not happened yet.

  Oh, but you say that time is just a ruler that we hold up to our history. You are correct! But apparently, like a measuring tape that unrolls, God knows events that have not unrolled out yet. How can he do this? Thank you zoolander:..

  In the 2 x a = b kinda world it is possible to predict ?b? when we or God knows the value of ?a?. Something is foreordained if God or us knowingly inserts the value of ?a? or even ?b?.

  Oh no! I can't believe in a God that makes me into a robot, my ego won't let me!

  Please people, leave your ego and predestination behind. This God I keep mentioning was created by us. I completely respect the ideal of a God who is not in control of our destinies. But as soon as you introduce a meddling God who destroys humans and the planet around them everytime they don't do want God wants (witness Eden, Noah's Flood, Sodom, and, coming soon to your neighborhood, Armegeddon), you lose your ego. Ergo Christains are robots.
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  zoolander

  and, coming soon to your neighborhood, Armegeddon lol
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  myelaine

  ezekiel3,

  yes i believe that mankind could and would destroy themselves if God didn't stop the ultimate destruction. Why do I believe this? There are "good" people and there are "bad" people. We don't know like God knows and therefore we could be called fools compared to God. LETHAL WEAPONS IN THE HANDS OF FOOLS. I would say the outcome can be predetermined. And the end of the earth as we know it is predestined, blah, blah, blah, Who or what will stop the inevitable? MAN? No we are failing, things are getting worst while we are just becoming aware of the problems.

  I was trying to pin down a "time" when man started measuring time. Obviously God and man "mark" time differently. We are a blip and God is eternal.

  I don't think I betray free will. It is my choice to follow God in the first place, my choice to read the Bible, my choice to want to find knowledge and understanding in the Bible and my choice to continue in the wisdom that I have found with God. It would be my choice if I decided to scrap all my "education" this minute and go and kill someone. But free will led me to the Bible and a relationship with God and I am at this time free to continue in the path I have chosen.

  Eze 3:17-21

  You have free will to choose a different purpose, you also know the consequences of that choice, death. So I would say..If you enjoyed your purpose, saw that it was most excellent regardless of adversity, why would you want to turn. Reason would suggset that not only would you remain but you would want to share. Help others to find and maintain their purpose. Why would you do this? Out of love, not force. And If you say that knowing that death is the consequences takes away your free will I will show you that there have been people throughout time that didn't let a little thing like death force them to serve God.

  I would say it comes down to this:

  God gave us free will forever NOT a free ride forever.

  He wants fellowship with His creation in paradise. That is why He created us, we were created fit for purpose. Evil was introduced, we choose our purpose, fellowship or not. God has a perfect place for fellowship with His children in paradise. Will you chose to be with Him.

  michelle

  I am enjoying our discussion I hope I can devote as much time to it as is needed.
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  ezekiel3

  myelaine:

  In Disney World there is a great ride called Indy Speedway, I loved it as a kid. You get to drive these little cars, you can even steer and control the speed. The catch is that your car is on a track and you can only go forward. But that did'nt matter, I had a great time.

  In essense you would call this free-will:

  If you enjoyed your purpose, saw that it was most excellent regardless of adversity, why would you want to turn.

  And let's be intellectually honest here, this is not a choice:

  You have free will to choose a different purpose, you also know the consequences of that choice, death.

  Now that I'm all growed up (just a nod to the grammer police), I get into a car I choose, and choose which direction to drive in. I choose what speed to drive. I choose the route to get there. I choose whether or not I will obey the posted speed limits. I also accept the consequences of my choices.

  But here is the crux, and I hope you understand this: If God knows the future, then all my "choices" are not choices at all, but merely successive events leading to a end point. From my human viewpoint, it may seem like I'm in control - but I'm not. You say:

  God has a perfect place for fellowship with His children in paradise. Will you chose to be with Him.

  This sounds like the end point, "a perfect place...in paradise". But how is God's tactics any different than a mugging? If a someone held a gun to your head and demanded your money, would you have a choice but to give over the money? At that point the mugger, not you, effectively controls your destiny.

  But if someone, like a beggar, asks for money (no gun of course) you can choose to give the money or not. The only difference between the mugger and the beggar is threat.

  The fact is that, according to your belief, billions of people, the majority of mankind are choosing not to be with God. This is also the pattern of Bible history: Flood survivors=8, Sodom survivors=3.

  God knew/knows in advance that the great majority of the human population will have to die for God's will to happen. If you want to rejoice that God won't kill you if you do what God says, be my guest ... and study up on Stockholm syndrome.
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  ballistic

  Just because time is something we use to measure things, and we percieve time as sequential events I think has confused a couple of posters and they have been side tracked from the main issue by trying to describe time. The way we percieve and use time does not preclude the fact that it is an inherant part of space in which we live and would exist without our conciousness.
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  myelaine

  ezekiel3,
  

  Now that I'm all growed up (just a nod to the grammer police), I get into a car I choose, and choose which direction to drive in. I choose what speed to drive. I choose the route to get there. I choose whether or not I will obey the posted speed limits. I also accept the consequences of my choices.

  Did someone put a gun to your head and tell you to drive?My guess is no. You had the choice to walk or drive, you made the choice to drive. Why?

  I drive because it is a privilege that I had the right to choose.

  michelle