A CRUCIFIX

ruffian

They must have felt very uncomfortable in my house what with all my graven images and wooden crucifix. This is the story they presented to me-

"Suppose you had a beloved son. That son was an advocate for a political cause and because of this he was popular but hated by the government and some people. So he was unjustly accused of a crime and sentanced to death. His followers were furious and to remember him they hung photos of him in the electric chair and wore necklaces of an image of him in the electric chair. How would this make you feel?"

OK This was the one thing they asked that stumped me. I am working on a reply to them for this Saturday. I am going to reaproach the topic with them by saying
..." that after further thinking on the subject, I would want the photos of that unjust execution hung from every wall in every house and every Church and every public building so that no one would forget the cause. I would want His death remembered for the brutality in which it was administered and I would want people to use to that image to remember for themselves that my son did indeed give his life for them, for a very worthy cause. But most of all I would want them to show that photo to everyone as to make sure it didnt happen again, much the same way prolifers use photos of aborted babies, or the photo of the little baby girl from the Oklahoma bombing."

Is this acceptable or will they have a come back that I should be prepaired for?

DannyBear

ruffian,

Jw's like to pick and choose their symbols. Some more acceptable than other's. Take for example the wedding ceremony, they embrace the use of the wedding ring (symbol of never ending circle of love) but outright loathe the idea of throwing rice (symbol of prosperity). Both these symbols have very common 'pagan' origins.

They celebrate (the only authorized celebration btw) 'the memorial' of Christ's death. They really consider that the most important aspect of their faith. Even though they are remembering his death, they once again reject, any symbolisism of the manner in which he died. Cross or stake not withstanding, they celebrate his death, but don't want to be reminded, directly how he died. That is why you hardly ever see illustrations of Jesus execution.

Why? It goes back to the early foundations of the cult. Charles Taze started the whole ball rolling, identifying hell fire, immortality of the soul,Jesus death on a stake not a cross, and a alot of other crazy ideas, that were directly opposite main stream christian religions. All of this was cutting edge, new stuff and attracted many follower's. Along came the next prophet, president, Judge Rutherford. He added more to the list of 'unchristian' conduct; celebrating Christmas, birthday's, no blood transfusions, all holiday's out the window, a list to long to mention of all the do's and don'ts.

So my point is this...they have taken these ridiculous stands on issues, just to make themselves appear different from their counterpart 'christian' religions. It is this difference that has served to attract million's of dissatisfied, to their ranks.

So no matter what you do or say, they will never be convinced one way or the other, about these little issues, until they have opened their eye's to the origins and motives behind the entire package, of believing or practicing the jw religion.

They are blinded.

DannyBear

ruffian

So what are some seeds I can plant in their minds to make them think about the origins or motives of their faith. remember they are young women- 17, 19, and 24(married). I am thinking there must be something that can be planted into a young mind to make them consider the motives of the faith. I also realize that after I plant this seed, I will probably no longer see them, but I will pray that at some point this seed will grow.

DannyBear

Were they raised as Jw's?

If so, they probably never really researched the origins of their religon.

If so, like myself they tend to accept it all on mere blind faith. They will say they have studied it. To them it was study, but in reality, only a question and answer review of maybe several Watchtower publications, used along with the Bible. So they really never have been exposed to the real history, personalities, or origins of JW doctrine.

The best thing you could do,imo, is to print out several pages from Randy's site Freeminds. I wish I could give you a link, but my computer abilities are not up to snuff. Maybe someone else reading this thread, would be so kind. You will find a slide presentation by Randy on HOW TO WITNESS TO A WITNESS. I think if you printed it out and asked for their help to understand it....it may go alot further than simply confronting them on their beliefs.

Hope all goes well with your discussion.

Danny

Fredhall

Talking about being blind TeddyBear,

Why don't you do some research on the cross in your local library? I did. And I came to the conclusion that Jesus died on a pole or stake.

logical

It really does not matter WHAT Jesus died on.

"Suppose you had a beloved son. That son was an advocate for a political cause and because of this he was popular but hated by the government and some people. So he was unjustly accused of a crime and sentanced to death. His followers were furious and to remember him they hung photos of him in the electric chair and wore necklaces of an image of him in the electric chair. How would this make you feel?"

Dont you think Jesus would HATE the cross? Wouldnt it be DETESTABLE to him, and his TRUE followers?

It doesnt matter AT ALL what he died on. No matter what it was, it is not exactly something that should be worshipped or hung around your neck.

tergiversator

Hi, ruffian,

That was a very good rebuttal of the common (only!) argument used to attack the cross on "common sense" grounds. It probably won't change their minds, but I doubt they will be able to come up with a way of getting around it.

I remember once when I was going door to door at age 15 or so and the guy at the door asked about blood transfusions. I pulled out trusty Acts 15:20 (heh.. it's been a while, I had to look it up ) and then he flummoxed me by saying, "But I always thought that 'abstain from blood' was a prohibition against murder." That was just so completely different from any interpretation I'd ever heard that all I could say was, "Well, I never thought about that before" and quickly leave the house. It got me thinking, why do I know that my (witness) interpretation of the Bible is correct? If that guy's way of reading it makes sense but is different from mine, what basis do I have for telling him he's wrong? That was one of the very early seeds of questioning that eventually got me to examine the whole religion and leave a few years later.

It all depends on who your witnesses are. If they're not ready to doubt, chances are nothing you say will stick. But if there's someone who's well-intentioned, out there because they know it's the truth and really want to understand why other people don't think so and help them to come in... well, maybe you'll plant something.

Good luck,
-T. (who loves being able to say "good luck")

tergiversator

Just a post-script: it didn't really matter that I didn't think the blood passage was talking about murder... just as I don't think it matters if you actually believe the cross shouldn't be bandied about as a symbol or not. What got me was the realization that there are other ways of thinking about things than what I had been taught, and maybe - just maybe - one or two of them might have something to tell me.

larc

Susan,

Again, I think your reasoning will confound them as it did with the graven image subject, since they are not used to a reasonable comeback.

As far as planting a seed of doubt, you might ask them how old their religion is. Then ask when their grandmother was born, so they fix a literal time frame in their mind. Then ask if they have always taught that the end of the world would be any day now? Their religion was founded in 1879. They have preached from day one that the end of the world would be here soon. Let us suppose that their grandparents were born around 1935. That is over 55 years after they started predicting the end of the world. They predicted the end in 1914, 1918, 1925, and 1975. You could provide quotes before 1975 that proves this. These quotes can be found on other threads here, or at the freeminds.org site mentioned by someone else. However, you might break this into two sessions. First time, ask them if they prdicted the end of the world in 1975. They will say no. Ask them if they could do some research from the literature before 1975. Their old literature should be at their Kingdom Hall and on a computer CD. Before their return visit you can get the quotes from us here.

Fredhall

Larc,

The world will end in two days.

A CRUCIFIX

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