One Devastating Bible Passage

by Farkel 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Valis
    Valis

    and then there is the same instance at Luke 9:49..

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    Ok, I finally found a place where the WTS directly addresses this passage:

    ***

    Greatest Man Who Ever Lived chap. 63 Further Corrective Counsel ***

    Chapter

    63

    Further

    Corrective Counsel

    WHILE Jesus and his apostles are still in the house in Capernaum, something besides the apostles? argument over who is the greatest is discussed. This is an incident that may also have occurred on their return to Capernaum, when Jesus was not personally present. The apostle John reports: "We saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us."

    Evidently John views the apostles as an exclusive, title-holding team of healers. So he feels that the man was performing powerful works improperly because he was not part of their group.

    However, Jesus counsels: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward."

    It was not necessary for this man bodily to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not yet been set up, so his not being part of their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation. The man really had faith in Jesus? name and thus succeeded in expelling demons. He was doing something that compared favorably with what Jesus said was deserving of a reward. Jesus shows that for doing this, he will not lose his reward.

    But what if the man was stumbled by the words and actions of the apostles? This would be very serious! Jesus observes: "Whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."

    Jesus says that his followers should remove from their lives anything as dear to them as a hand, a foot, or an eye that may cause them to stumble. Better to be without this cherished thing and enter into God?s Kingdom than to hold on to it and be pitched into Gehenna (a burning rubbish heap near Jerusalem), which symbolizes eternal destruction.

    Jesus also warns: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." He then illustrates the preciousness of "little ones" when he tells about a man who possesses a hundred sheep but loses one. The man will leave the 99 to search for the lost one, Jesus explains, and on finding it will rejoice more over it than over the 99. "Likewise," Jesus then concludes, "it is not a desirable thing with my Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish."

    Possibly having in mind his apostles? argument among themselves, Jesus urges: "Have salt in yourselves, and keep peace between one another." Tasteless foods are made more palatable by salt. Thus, figurative salt makes what one says easier to accept. Having such salt will help preserve the peace.

    But because of human imperfection, at times serious disputes will occur. Jesus also provides guidelines for handling them. "If your brother commits a sin," Jesus says, "go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." If he does not listen, Jesus advises, "take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."

    Only as a last resort, Jesus says, take the matter to "the congregation," that is, to responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision. If the sinner will not abide by their decision, Jesus concludes, "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

    In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah?s Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment ?will already have been bound in heaven.? And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.

    · Why was it not necessary in Jesus? day to accompany him?

    · How serious is the matter of stumbling a little one, and how does Jesus illustrate the importance of such little ones?

    · What probably prompts Jesus? encouragement for the apostles to have salt among themselves?

    · What significance is there to ?binding? and ?loosing??

    It looks like they copied chapter 68 from the 1988 Feb 15th Watchtower...

    ***

    Watchtower 88 2/15 pp. 8-9 Further Corrective Counsel ***

    Jesus?

    Life and Ministry

    Further

    Corrective Counsel

    WHILE still in the house in Capernaum, something besides the apostles? argument over who is the greatest is discussed. This incident too may have occurred on their return to Capernaum, when Jesus was not personally present. The apostle John reports: "We saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us."

    Evidently John views the apostles as an exclusive, title-holding team of healers. So he feels that the man was performing powerful works improperly because he was not part of their group.

    However, Jesus counsels: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward."

    It was not necessary for this man bodily to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not yet been set up, so his not being part of their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation. The man really had faith in Jesus? name and thus succeeded in expelling demons. He was doing something that compared favorably with what Jesus said was deserving of a reward. For doing this, Jesus shows, he will not lose his reward.

    But what if the man was stumbled by the words and actions of the apostles? This would be very serious! Jesus observes: "Whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."

    Jesus says that his followers should remove from their lives anything as dear to them as a hand, a foot, or an eye that may cause them to stumble. Better to be without this cherished thing and enter into God?s Kingdom than to hold on to it and be pitched into Gehenna (a burning rubbish heap near Jerusalem), which symbolizes eternal destruction.

    Jesus also warns: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." He then illustrates the preciousness of "little ones" by telling about a man who possesses 100 sheep but loses one. The man will leave the 99 to search for the lost one, Jesus explains, and on finding it will rejoice more over it than over the 99. "Likewise," Jesus then concludes, "it is not a desirable thing with my Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish."

    Possibly having in mind his apostles? argument among themselves, Jesus urges: "Have salt in yourselves, and keep peace between one another." Tasteless foods are made more palatable by salt. Thus, figurative salt makes what one says easier to accept. Having such salt will help preserve the peace.

    But because of human imperfection, at times serious disputes will occur. Jesus also provides guidelines for handling them. "If your brother commits a sin," Jesus says, "go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." If he does not listen, Jesus advises, "take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."

    Only as a last resort, Jesus says, take the matter to "the congregation," that is, to responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision. If the sinner will not abide by their decision, Jesus concludes, "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

    In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah?s Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment ?will already have been bound in heaven.? And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.

    ·

    Why was it not necessary in Jesus? day to accompany him?

    ·

    How serious is the matter of stumbling a little one, and how did Jesus illustrate the importance of such little ones?

    ·

    What probably prompted Jesus? encouragement for the apostles to have salt among themselves?

    ·

    What significance is there to ?binding? and ?loosing??
  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Their 'out' is the phrase "the Christian congregation had not yet been set up". They say that once that happened, it would be necessary to be part of the group. To them, Jesus' words had a limited-time-only application.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I ran the two articles through a program that finds differences in the text and here is what I found:

    Greatest Man Who Ever Lived version:

    Chapter 63

    Further Corrective Counsel

    WHILE Jesus and his apostles are still in the house in Capernaum, something besides the apostles' argument over who is the greatest is discussed. This is an incident that may also have occurred on their return to Capernaum, when Jesus was not personally present. The apostle John reports: "We saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us."

    Evidently John views the apostles as an exclusive, title-holding team of healers. So he feels that the man was performing powerful works improperly because he was not part of their group.

    However, Jesus counsels: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward."

    It was not necessary for this man bodily to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not yet been set up, so his not being part of their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation. The man really had faith in Jesus' name and thus succeeded in expelling demons. He was doing something that compared favorably with what Jesus said was deserving of a reward. Jesus shows that for doing this, he will not lose his reward.

    But what if the man was stumbled by the words and actions of the apostles? This would be very serious! Jesus observes: "Whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."

    Jesus says that his followers should remove from their lives anything as dear to them as a hand, a foot, or an eye that may cause them to stumble. Better to be without this cherished thing and enter into God's Kingdom than to hold on to it and be pitched into Gehenna (a burning rubbish heap near Jerusalem), which symbolizes eternal destruction.

    Jesus also warns: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." He then illustrates the preciousness of "little ones" when he tells about a man who possesses a hundred sheep but loses one. The man will leave the 99 to search for the lost one, Jesus explains, and on finding it will rejoice more over it than over the 99. "Likewise," Jesus then concludes, "it is not a desirable thing with my Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish."

    Possibly having in mind his apostles' argument among themselves, Jesus urges: "Have salt in yourselves, and keep peace between one another." Tasteless foods are made more palatable by salt. Thus, figurative salt makes what one says easier to accept. Having such salt will help preserve the peace.

    But because of human imperfection, at times serious disputes will occur. Jesus also provides guidelines for handling them. "If your brother commits a sin," Jesus says, "go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." If he does not listen, Jesus advises, "take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."

    Only as a last resort, Jesus says, take the matter to "the congregation," that is, to responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision. If the sinner will not abide by their decision, Jesus concludes, "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

    In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah's Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment 'will already have been bound in heaven.' And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.

    · Why was it not necessary in Jesus' day to accompany him?

    · How serious is the matter of stumbling a little one, and how does Jesus illustrate the importance of such little ones?

    · What probably prompts Jesus' encouragement for the apostles to have salt among themselves?

    · What significance is there to 'binding' and 'loosing'?

    Watchtower version:

    Jesus' Life and Ministry

    Further Corrective Counsel

    WHILE still in the house in Capernaum, something besides the apostles' argument over who is the greatest is discussed. This incident too may have occurred on their return to Capernaum, when Jesus was not personally present. The apostle John reports: "We saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us."

    Evidently John views the apostles as an exclusive, title-holding team of healers. So he feels that the man was performing powerful works improperly because he was not part of their group.

    However, Jesus counsels: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward."

    It was not necessary for this man bodily to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not yet been set up, so his not being part of their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation. The man really had faith in Jesus' name and thus succeeded in expelling demons. He was doing something that compared favorably with what Jesus said was deserving of a reward. For doing this, Jesus shows, he will not lose his reward.

    But what if the man was stumbled by the words and actions of the apostles? This would be very serious! Jesus observes: "Whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."

    Jesus says that his followers should remove from their lives anything as dear to them as a hand, a foot, or an eye that may cause them to stumble. Better to be without this cherished thing and enter into God's Kingdom than to hold on to it and be pitched into Gehenna (a burning rubbish heap near Jerusalem), which symbolizes eternal destruction.

    Jesus also warns: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." He then illustrates the preciousness of "little ones" by telling about a man who possesses 100 sheep but loses one. The man will leave the 99 to search for the lost one, Jesus explains, and on finding it will rejoice more over it than over the 99. "Likewise," Jesus then concludes, "it is not a desirable thing with my Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish."

    Possibly having in mind his apostles' argument among themselves, Jesus urges: "Have salt in yourselves, and keep peace between one another." Tasteless foods are made more palatable by salt. Thus, figurative salt makes what one says easier to accept. Having such salt will help preserve the peace.

    But because of human imperfection, at times serious disputes will occur. Jesus also provides guidelines for handling them. "If your brother commits a sin," Jesus says, "go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." If he does not listen, Jesus advises, "take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."

    Only as a last resort, Jesus says, take the matter to "the congregation," that is, to responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision. If the sinner will not abide by their decision, Jesus concludes, "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

    In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah's Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment 'will already have been bound in heaven.' And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.

    · Why was it not necessary in Jesus' day to accompany him?

    · How serious is the matter of stumbling a little one, and how did Jesus illustrate the importance of such little ones?

    · What probably prompted Jesus' encouragement for the apostles to have salt among themselves?

    · What significance is there to 'binding' and 'loosing'?

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    OMG : You have such a good memory of the scriptures ...

    the only one I can remember for real and not even related to this topic are : II Tim 3:16 and Mat 24:14 (I know why ... I've heard so much about them in such a little time).

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    How come nobody applies this to Jws. 99% are not christian, but they do stuff in Jesus name.

  • El blanko
    El blanko

    I have recently revised my appreciation of that scripture. To me, Jesus was actually pointing out a lesson in judgement, or to be more precise, in not judging the good works of another Christian based around their association.

    Yet the WTBS condemn groups like Christian Aid for not belonging to God's 'true' organization and make invalid the good works those people achieve (many I assume being practising Christians of one sort or another).

    Typical WTBS blinkered view of what constitutes works worthy of God.

    I'm glad I no longer view that organization as being top of the pile.

    I even had the audacity when serving, to turn away charities based around the prejudiced attitude I held. How sad and how unlike Christ.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine
    "John said to him: "Teacher, we saw a certain man expeling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us. But Jesus said: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me, for he that is not against us is for us."

    The above emphasis in the scripture is wrongly placed. The words: "for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name" is the crux of that scripture.

    The point being that only by God's spirit can such a powerful work be accomplished on the basis of Jesus' name therefore since God's spirit is at work that individual cannot be against Jesus but for him.

    There is no contradiction in the scripture..

    Sabrina

  • toreador
    toreador

    Questions from Readers

    ?

    How can we harmonize Matthew 12:30 with Mark 9:39, 40? The latter has been used to argue in favor of all the various religions that preach in Jesus? name.?R. K., Ohio.

    Mark 9:39, 40 is harmonious with Matthew 12:30, of course. In Matthew 12 the Pharisees displayed themselves as not being on Jesus? side because of their false accusations, and so Jesus said to them: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." (Matt. 12:30, NW) The Pharisees were against him and were scattering Israelites away from him. But in Mark 9 the man involved was a fellow Israelite who was not falsifying about Jesus but who believed in the power of his name and was using it to cast out demons. The fact that he succeeded showed Jehovah God, Jesus? Father, did not disapprove or leave the man in the lurch. So how could Jesus object? The record shows that he did not: "John said to him: ?Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.? But Jesus said: ?Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us.?"?Mark 9:38-40, NW.

    Not all believers in Jesus followed him along with the twelve apostles. Some who wanted to follow Jesus were told to go back home and bear witness to him there. (Mark 5:18-20) Hence it was not necessary for this man to bodily follow Jesus to be on his side. There were only two sides in this controversy, either for or against Jesus, and since he was not against him he was for Jesus. From Pentecost and the outpouring of the spirit on the faithful it would be necessary for this man to associate himself with the congregation of Christians in order to receive the spirit and be approved of God for not being against Jesus. It is different with the religious systems that now preach in Jesus? name. It cannot be said that all these are not against him for that reason, for they are against Jehovah?s faithful witnesses who do preach Jesus and his kingdom. So as they are against the least of these his brothers, they are against him and their mere use of Jesus? name does not gain favorable recognition of them as true followers. Matthew 7:20-23 (NW) applies to them:

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Toreador,

    The fact that he succeeded showed Jehovah God, Jesus? Father, did not disapprove or leave the man in the lurch. So how could Jesus object?

    I agree.

    Sabrina

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