gods name

by lurk 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    as Onacruse said,

    There are NO greek manuscripts of the New Testament which contain the tetragrammaton. The WTS says that they include it where the NT is quoting the OT. The fundamental flaw here is to assume that the NT writers didn't intend for it to now be read "Lord" - IMHO it is entirely possible for Christian writers to replace "Jehovah" with "Lord" because Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT and Jesus was subsequently God (most prominent)

    "Jehovah" in the New Testament is simply the WTS writers putting it where they see fit.

    Sirona

  • lurk
    lurk

    narkissos

    Your supermarket comparison, interesting as it is, implies a store with several accounts of several real customers. If there is only one customer the whole story collapses. That is the apory of monotheism as regards the name of "God".
    are you sure? the type of name " i am what /who i am makes a differant statement to i shall be who i shall be ..the first is a statement of exsitance of simplying being who you are the second is more a statement about intension to prove who you are. the supermarket story uses the name as exsistance not intention and ssumes only one god but it is to humans who live in a world of many gods that the one and only god addresses himself. ...there for many accounts is valid ...i think anyway. working from the assumption of 1 god in a multi faith world. lurk
  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    Adonai comes from the word Adon the name which means Aton or Aten a egyptian sun god. This god was worshiped almost mono theisticaly (henotheistically) about 150 years before Moses is said to have writen the bible. Aten was said "to have no equal" he also banned representation of him out side of his symbol a sun disk. People still know how to pronouce his name.

    Jehovah is a midianite god worshiped by Moses pagan wife and inlaws. Infact she saved moses from getting killed by Jehovah.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Adonai comes from the word Adon the name which means Aton or Aten a egyptian sun god. This god was worshiped almost mono theisticaly (henotheistically) about 150 years before Moses is said to have writen the bible. Aten was said "to have no equal" he also banned representation of him out side of his symbol a sun disk. People still know how to pronouce his name.

    No, this old canard is linguistically specious. (1) First of all, the Egyptian word for Aten was actually itn (pronounced with an initial y), and while the initial y often became an aleph (i.e. 'tn) by the time of the New Kingdom (if not earlier), this was not always the case; thus some scholars render Akhenaten's name as "Akhanyati". Moreover, the final -n either dropped out or was pronounced syllabically (i.e. like English "button" when pronounced fast); one of the cuneiform Tell Amarna letters vocalizes the name of Akhenaten's daughter Meritaten as Mayati. This makes for a poor fit with Hebrew 'dwn and 'd(w)ny, which has a non-syllabic /n/ and long medial vowel. (2) Hebrew and Canaanite 'dwn and 'dn were sometimes used as divine epithets, but these were not names of a particular deity but ordinary words meaning "lord, father" that often referred to humans. All the early uncontested instances of 'dn in Hebrew inscriptions refer to human beings, not deities: 'mr l-'dny "say to my lord" (Davies inscription 8.021:1-2), wyhy 'm 'd[n]y "may (God) be with my lord" (Kuntillet 'Arjud Pithos B), nttm l-'dny "I gave them to my lord" (Tel 'Arad Ostracon, 40), etc. (3) The simple fact is that 'dn was used in Northwest Semitic long before Akhenaten promoted Aten monolatry, with meanings that had nothing do with the sun (Aten was a hypostasis of the sun god). It goes at least as far back to the Mari texts from the Middle Bronze Age (18th and 17th centuries BC), and it appears also in Ugaritic texts from the 15th to 13th centuries BC. It is also attested as Hurrian attani in the Quadrilingual Vocabulary found at Ras Shamra (with Akkadian abu "father" being equivalent to Hurrian attani and Ugaritic adanu). In these early texts, the meaning is "lord" but also "father," especially as a title. It is thus connected by most Semiticists to Ugaritic 'ad "father" which derives ultimately from Sumerian AD "father". The final -n, according to Mark Smith, is a sufformative ending. This neatly accounts for the origin and meaning of the Hebrew and Ugaritic word. Deriving the word from a totally different Egyptian name for the sun god explains nothing.

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    I can't comment on lingustics not my feild.

    I from what you seem you be explaining is how two words look simular on paper but have different history. As for the words to be too disymular to homonalogise I can't say.

    You also seems to be defending the watchtowers stance. Which I am sure they are happy about.

    I can't see what you mean "Deriving the word from a totally different Egyptian name for the sun god explains nothing." I can't see what you explained that explained more. Also your refutation is not that explicit. Maybe thats just the nature of acient history or linguistics.

    Even today mistranslation of simple things like english to spanish gives bizaar results. Perdue Farms slogan changed from "It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken" to "It takes a sexually aroused man to make a chicken affectionate" So to me it is hard for me to change my view because of lingustics when the linguistics don't directly conflict. These people steal a heck of a lot from each other no matter how monothistic they claim.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I from what you seem you be explaining is how two words look simular on paper but have different history.

    It happens all the time. That is how so many crackpot theories of "Sumerian being related to Greek" or "Greek being related to Tahitian" or "English being related to Hebrew" get proposed -- you can randomly take any two languages that have nothing to do with each other and find words that "look similar on paper" but have totally different histories when you look at them in detail.

    You also seems to be defending the watchtowers stance. Which I am sure they are happy about.

    That's ridiculous. I was simply correcting an erroneous claim you made. Would it "defend" the Watchtower to insist that the borough of Brooklyn really does exist, because that would support the "Watchtower's stance" that it is based there? Not everything it says is false, you know. The Insight book, for instance, mixes the Watchtower's own sectarian views with information derived from scholarly sources. Tell me, exactly which "stance" would I be "defending" by stating the facts on the matter?

    I can't see what you mean "Deriving the word from a totally different Egyptian name for the sun god explains nothing." I can't see what you explained that explained more.

    Then you did not understand what I wrote. I explained that (1) the words were not even that similar phonetically, (2) the Hebrew and Canaanite word 'adonay was not even a divine name (as was Aten), but a word that was frequently used to refer to human beings (that's a BIG problem for your hypothesis), (3) the Hebrew-Canaanite word is much older than you would expect, being used 500 years before Akhenaten cast Aten into the role of a "monotheistic" deity (that is a FATAL problem for your hypothesis), (4) the same word was loaned into the Hurrian language, which is hard to believe if the word was Egyptian in origin, (4) the older meaning of the Canaanite word was not "sun" or "sun-disk" (which is what the Aten was) but "father".

    Your explanation accounts for none of these facts, aside from a superficial resemblance between the words. You would have to explain why the Hebrew and Canaanite form of the word is not something like yadi, 'adni, and so forth. You would have to explain how the name to the one monotheistic God suddenly got applied mainly to people, only to then only later reemerge as an exclusive title of the one monotheistic God of the Hebrew religion. You would have to explain how it was borrowed with no hint of its solar meaning that it had all throughout Egypt but instead meant "father," such as human fathers. The meanings are totally different. And you would have to explain how the word was used in Canaan and Upper Mesopotamia (by the Mari, and then later by the Hurrians) CENTURIES before the name of the Aten referred to a quasi-monotheistic god. These facts makes your hypothesis highly improbable.

    Now the accepted etymology of the word as I explain in my last post neatly accounts for all these facts. The original etymon was Sumerian AD "father" which was used in the third millenium BC and it was loaned into Amorite, the language of Mari, which added the sufformative ending -n. The Amorite form, used in Upper Mesopotamia c. 1700 BC, was also borrowed into the Hurrian language as 'attani. In all these early forms, the word meant "father" and secondarily "lord". The Amorites also colonized Canaan and thus naturally brought the word 'adn and the original form 'ad "father". Thus the pre-Israelite Canaanite texts from Ugarit use both 'ad and 'adn, the former exclusively meaning "father" and the latter meaning both "father (as a title)" and "lord". It is only now at this time that Akhenaten arose in Egypt with his exclusive worship of the Sun-Disk, or the Aten. Later, in the early first millenium BC, the term 'adn was used in Hebrew, no longer meaning "father" but exclusively as "lord" and frequently referring to people. When 'ad(w)ny was used to refer to Yahweh, it was as an epithet and not as a name. Then, many CENTURIES later, especially after the Jewish exile that ended in 535 BC, the later term 'adwny was used in place of the divine name Yahweh. Only now, practically a THOUSAND years after Akhenaten, could the use of the term be superficially compared to Aten as it was briefly used by Akhenaten so long ago. But even such a simple-minded comparison ignores the fact that Ate(n) didn't even sound like 'ad(w)n -- pronounced with a long /o/ with or without the mater lectionis in its written representation (cf. the Phoenician god Adonis, which has the long /o/ (omega) in its Greek transliteration), and with a non-syllabic /n/ that either did not exist in the Egyptian form or was pronounced syllabically.

    To me it is hard for me to change my view because of lingustics when the linguistics don't directly conflict.

    There is a direct conflict! The Hebrew/Semitic word 'adon was used centuries before Akhenaten among people (such as the Amorites of Mari) who had nothing to do with the Eygptians. The meaning of the word had nothing in common with that of Aten. So the only resemblance is that between the spelling of Aten (which wasn't pronounced quite like Aten) and 'adon in English.

    Your anachronisitic "folk etymology" of the Hebrew word has nothing to do with the actual history of the word.

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    One question how come the Lord or father was describe as a sun and a shield. I mean why?

    And considering they were two different cultures wouldn't you expect this type of dicontinuity?

  • lurk
    lurk

    leolaia you make my simple mind boggle lol

    i used to think words that look similar must mean the same etc...untill i read abit on hierglyhs and transliteration(only a bit mind you).

    lurk

  • Terry
    Terry

    Jah, Jehovah, Yaweh, Yahu, Ya or the consonant equivalents all refer to a Canaanite bull calf.

    He was not SOLELY the god of Israel and this is attested to by a number of ancient artifacts and records. Yah was being worshipped outside of Israel and Judah. The worship of Yahweh seems to have originated in areas south of Israel, whence it was brought by whichever tribes actually did take part in the Exodus (far fewer than the 12 tribes).

    It took a long time to separate out the pagan part of this god from the monotheistic solo god aspect. When the redactors (around 800 b.c.e.) edited the stories about Israel's interactions with Jah or Yahweh they put a condemnatory aspect on the golden calf facet of the worship to delineate bad worship from good worship.

    An artifact discovered in the city of ELEPHANTINE demonstrates the way in which Yaweh was viewed before the Exile. It is a coin from the 4th century BCE Gaza which depicts Yaweh, with the inscription YWH, as a bearded man holding a hawk and sitting on a winged wheel, much the way Sumerian and Babylonian deities were portrayed. These gods were essentially exalted humans like the Olympians of ancient Greece.

    The Jews overhauled a pagan deity and after being exposed to monotheism and Manichean thought in Babylon--divested the Canaanite got of any duality.

    This is our beloved Jehovah! Ta dah!

  • Pole
    Pole

    leolaia you make my simple mind boggle lol

    i used to think words that look similar must mean the same etc...untill i read abit on hierglyhs and transliteration(only a bit mind you).

    I can't say anything about this particular case, but in principle Leolaia is right. Here is how this apparent paradox can be exlpained in more contemporary terms:

    1) What are cognates? Cognates are words in different languages which look similar and they usually have a similar meaning because they are historically derived from the same word. For instance, take the English word "is" :

    EnglishGermanFrenchLatinGreekSanskritPersian
    isistest
    (ê)
    estestiastiast
    (ê)

    These words are true cognates. They look and sound similar, and they mean something similar because all of those languages belong to the same family and have developed from the "proto-indoeuropean" language.

    2) What are borrowings? Borrowings are words borrowed from another language. For instance the English word "revolution" was borrowed from late Latin. Guess what the Polish word "rewolucja" means? That's right! It means the same - it was also borrowe from latin. It looks similar and the meaning is pretty much the same.

    3) What are false cognates and false borrowings? These are basically words in different languages which look and sound similar, they may even mean something similar, but they don't have a common etymology (history).

    For instance, if English and Japanese were ancient languages, a rookie scholar might claim that the English word "hi" must have something to do with the Japanese "hai" ("yes"). But these words have nothing in common. they just happen to sound similar.

    Pole

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