gods name

by lurk 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

lurk

been thinking about what blondie said about the use of jehovah in 1 thessalonians:4 and how they try to pass the word lord of as both jesus and jehovah ........so i looked some stuff up.... i cant think why i was so convinced that the disciples used gods name. im willing to be convinced though.
example of jehovah being added and lord meaning both jesus and jehovah

1 Thessalonians 1:8
The fact is, not only has the word of Jehovah sounded forth from YOU in Mac·e·do'ni·a and A·cha'ia, but in every place YOUR faith toward God has spread abroad, so that we do not need to say anything.

Footnote = "Of Jehovah," J7, 8, 17, 18, 22, 23;

1 Thessalonians 4:6
that no one go to the point of harming and encroach upon the rights of his brother in this matter, because Jehovah is one who exacts punishment for all these things, just as we told YOU beforehand and also gave YOU a thorough witness.

Footnote = see appendix 1D

1 thessalonians 4 :15-17
15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah's * word,(m) that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];
16 because the Lord * himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord . 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

footnotes

V15 jehovah = see appendix 1D
V15 the Lord = "The Lord," <H<!>H>AVg; B, "Jesus."
V16 the Lord* ="The Lord," <H<!>H>ABVg; J7, 8, 13, 14, "Jehovah."
V17 the Lord = "The Lord," <H<!>H>ABVg; J7, 8, "Jehovah
V17 [the]Lord= "Lord," <H<!>H>ABVg; J7, 8, 13, 14, 24, "Jehovah
appendix 1D says
the tetragrammaton was used in greek septuagint and hebrew text so appostles would know it.
jesus would have pronounced it twice reading issiah at synagogue this is in acordance with his determination of making the name known (how if everyone else read it to !!!!!were they doing same job as him just casue they read it out?)
there is evidence that the disciples used the tetragrammaton because jerome in 4th century says mathew wrote his book originaly in hebrew and it was then translated to greek
they go on to say mathew would have quoted scripture with the tetragrammton in from OT so therefore he must have writen gods name in his original scripture (copied OT quotes ? yes probably... .but does this mean he said it while he was talking about god in the street?he didnt say adoni instead?)
peter is said to have quoted from septuagint that uses teragrammaton (how they know which translation he used is a mystery to me didnt alot of them have it but use adoni instead!!!),they say peters speech when put on record would have used the Tetregrammaton...this is naughty because they know that only peters quote from the OT would have gods name in it for certain .....no evidence says peters recorded speech included gods name in any way other than a quote.importanlty they do not mention that when quoting scripture peter peter may have followed jewish tradition and said "adoni" instread of gods name its self.
they mention a book that suggests a theory ,that the New testement originaly used gods name in quotes from the old testement (note this is for OT quotes only)
no evidence other than the use of hebrew quotes is given to support the the idea that the tetragrammaton was even used by early christians in any way other than quotes or that they spoke the sacred name rather than the traditionaly word adoni.
the appendix goes on to say they have restored the devine name in quotes as well as other places where
texts called for restoration.comparing scriputure with the OT to make sure they get it right .
*** Rbi8 1565 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures ***To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name.-See 1Co 7:17 ftn, "Jehovah."
so they in other words they turned lord in to jehovah where they think it should be, but there is no evidece to say that it was ever said out side a OT quote.
by christs time gods name the teragrammaton was a taboo word but no where in the bible are the disciples critized for using gods name which would have caused much upset if they had been using it daily to preach surely? why no mention of it?
if it was the important work spreading gods name and yet it was to holy to be spoken why is it never mentioned in bible as a problem? the jews critized them for everything else why no critisium about their use of the holy and sacred name?
paul even gave in to the jews over tradition visiting them temple so as not to offend them ..they were obviously offended over anything that deviated from jewish tradition .
so why wasnt the disciples use of gods name ever a problem?
lurk
onacruse

God saw to it that It's Biblical revelation was preserved in some 7,000 Greek manuscripts, and yet not one of those manuscripts shows that It was concerned that It's "name" be preserved.
In various legal documents that I have submitted, I always made sure, absolutely sure, that my legal name was properly recorded, for all to see.
Is God myopic? Or maybe it's a non-issue (except for the WTS).
Terry

The Watchtower Society puts a false spin on why the Jews do not utter the name of God. They call it superstition.
Not so. The Jews considered the name of God Holy. They regarded their relationship with their God as contingent upon their behavior and not on making his name known. Further, they were reluctant to use God's personal name in an unworthy way. It would be a violation of the Ten Commandments.
JW's are on a first name basis with the Supreme Being! Outrageous hubris. No son would respectfully call his own earthly father by his given name; and yet the Witnesses do everything with great impunity including false prophecy in that very name.
The actual use of "jehovah" or equivalents by New Testament "authors" is moot. We aren't certain there was any need for parlance among the Gentile converts and we know the Jewish messianic group would never employ the name the way the JW's do.
Farkel

"Jehovah" is a bastardized rendering of the Tetragrammaton which includes the vowels from Adonai and Elohim. That version of God's name didn't appear until about the 16th century A.D.

If God had wanted humans to use, honor and somehow "vindicate" His name, why in-the-hell didn't he bother to take the time to tell us EXACTLY what it is?

Note that even Jesus didn't mention God's name in his "model" prayer.

Farkel
Pole

FARKEL WROTE:
If God had wanted humans to use, honor and somehow "vindicate" His name, why in-the-hell didn't he bother to take the time to tell us EXACTLY what it is?
Just one more thing God was very lazy about. I agree with your conclusions.
"Jehovah" is a bastardized rendering of the Tetragrammaton which includes the vowels from Adonai and Elohim. That version of God's name didn't appear until about the 16th century A.D.
I'm not sure where you got it from, or who exactly you think "bastardized" it. Here is why this sounds like a caballistic, conspirational sort of argument to me.
Some statistical linguistics:
I don't now much about biblical Hebrew or Arameic, so correct me if I'm wrong but a general charactersitics of Semitic languages is that they have very limited vowel systems (3-5). Compare it with germanic laguages such as English or Swedish (12-16 vowels). This is partly because vowels in Semitic languages often only have a morphological function (e.g. they allow speakers to distinguish between different inflections). Hence some of them have "abjed" alphabets in which vowels are not represented at all.
So what?
Adonai an Elohim contain the following vowels:
a, o, i, e
The only other possibly Semitic "vowel" I can think of is u. Even if you assume that we are dealing with the transliterated version the language (Hebrew transcribed using the latin alphabet with vowels inserted).
What vowels do we have in the word "Jehovah"?
e, o , a
You have a three-syllable word, you need to pick three vowels from a set of 5.
People will call it conspiration if those three vowels overlap with the four different vowels found in Elohim and Adonai. Whatever the order.
Let's assume that the vowels in the new form of God's name can repeat themselves. So what's the probability of being accused of conspiration ("bastardizing" using the Elohim - Adonai vowles)?
0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 = 0,512 = 51,2%
My maths may be corrupted (I can't see where for now), but it seems that it's 51.2 % probable that J_H_V_H vowels will coincide with the vowels found in Adonai/Elohim. So where is the conspiration?
Pole
EDITED: However unimportant this elaboration may be for your conclusions. I must be really bored today.... :)
Farkel

: EDITED: However unimportant this elaboration may be for your conclusions. I must be really bored today.... :)

Good! I'm too bored today to come up with a worthy response or find references to support my assertion!

What's most important is that no one today knows which vowels belong in YHWH and where they belong. This alone supports my opinion that either God doesn't care whether we know his exact name or not, or that he was incapable of making sure the exact produnciation was not lost. Either way, it supports a conclusion that dubs are making too much out of a non-important issue by insisting on using that name as often as possible.

Farkel
metatron

Let's deal with some simple facts: Jesus and his disciples avoided using "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", period!
They PRIMARILY referred to God as "Father" - AS IN the Lord's Prayer ( which actually proves the opposite
of what Witnesses quote it for!) Jesus avoided the name while dying, calling God "Father" and even quoting from
the Psalms, as transliterated "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani" - "My God, My God.....
Paul avoided the name by telling Christians that there is "to us, one God, the Father..... and one Lord, Jesus Christ"
John avoided the name altogether in his letters - even in the New World Translation!
metatron
Narkissos

The Jews considered the name of God Holy. They regarded their relationship with their God as contingent upon their behavior and not on making his name known. Further, they were reluctant to use God's personal name in an unworthy way. It would be a violation of the Ten Commandments.

The question remains, why did the monotheistic Jews come to regard the name of Yhwh as holy to the point of being unpronounceable, while it was clearly used in dialogue in their old writings? My guess is: because it had become an embarrassing vestige from polytheism.
When Yhwh was just one god among others, he had to be called by his name. When Yhwh became "God", he didn't need a name anymore. As Philo pointed out, the monotheistic God really cannot be called by any name.
The most embarrassing is often explained away in the highest clouds of mystical holiness. Such as the Song of Solomon (a love song with a likely polytheistic origin) which is sometimes called the holiest book in rabbinical tradition.
lurk

onacruise you make a good point there...if the bible can be preserved why would the most important thing be lost!!!
terry
and we know the Jewish messianic group would never employ the name the way the JW's do.
How?
farkel
If God had wanted humans to use, honor and somehow "vindicate" His name, why in-the-hell didn't he bother to take the time to tell us EXACTLY what it is?
youd think it would be alot easier than all the guessing if its that important
pole i agree ..i dont see how jehovah used the vowls that follow the 4 letters of gods name,unless differant vowles were used when it origianaly was used.
metetron
this is really good thinking..thanks i hadnt thought of that
narkissos
My guess is: because it had become an embarrassing vestige from polytheism.
when you look at the name its self........i think it surpasses any idea of other gods. and suggest merly a statement of exsistance..............almost as if to say.what name could i have...i simply am.
my question now is
god introduced himself as " i am the god of your fathers etc" and this is exactly what he goes on to quote as what moses should say when the ask for a name
whats the differacne between this i am and the ones that followed........yet i am in this verse is not kept in hebrew letters or siad to be holy..i made up the story below to show what i mean
ok here a story it might not make sense to you .but it helped me think of gods name in a differant way
the daughter of mary and ron is gardening one day.
jane passes by stops and says hello
the daughter of mary and ron says " hello -i am the daughter of mary and ron"
the daughter of mary and ron askes jane to fetch some shopping for her from the local supermarket
and tells her to put it on her account at the supermarket.
janes says "what name shall i say sent me"
the daughter of mary and ron says "well i am who i am , I am me , I am the daughter of mary and ron
"so tell them i sent you"
"tell them " i am the daughter of mary and ron sent you "
so jane goes to the supermarket and buys the shopping and goes to the till
jane explains the shopping isnt for her but for the person who sent her and should be put on that persons account
so the man at the till askes " who sent you ?"
jane replies "i am sent me "
then she adds "i am the daughter of mary and ron sent me"
the man at the till knows mary and ron and their daughter
he pulls up the account and charges the shopping to "iam the daughter of mary and ron" which is the name people know her by always.
ok you might laugh at this ..but after reading exodus after that story this was the only way to make sense of the "name"
is related to gods introduction of himself to moses as simply identity and thats all.
Narkissos

Lurk:
I think the 'ehyeh 'asher 'ehyeh (I am / shall be what / who I am / shall be) phrase in Exodus 3 is a quite isolated, late, theological (i.e. monotheistic) pun explanation on the (already embarrassing) divine name Yhwh. Nothing more, nothing less.
Your supermarket comparison, interesting as it is, implies a store with several accounts of several real customers. If there is only one customer the whole story collapses. That is the apory of monotheism as regards the name of "God".

gods name

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