BLOOD -- WTS Questions and Sound Answers 12

by Marvin Shilmer 11 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer


    BLOOD -- WTS Questions and Sound Answers 12

    Does the Bible say Abel never ate flesh with its blood?

    The WTS writes:

    "Abel never ate flesh with its blood, which is its soul or life. Abel was a God-fearing man, and the divine permission for mankind to eat the flesh of the lower animals and birds and fish had not yet been given. Likewise, Noah and his fellow flood survivors had not eaten flesh before the deluge, for the same reason. With full respect for the precious value and meaning of blood, God now permitted mankind to eat the flesh of animals and birds, but not along with the blood of the creature eaten." -- Anonymous, Innocence by Respect for Sacredness of Blood, The Watchtower, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, Inc. 1959 11/1: 646 (Underlining added)

    So the WTS asserts that Abel never ate flesh. Do we find in the Bible a statement that Abel never ate animal flesh with its blood? No. So how does the WTS try and substantiate its claim?

    According to the WTS, mankind had not been given divine permission as of Abel's time to eat the flesh of lower animals, whether that flesh was living or dead. (Whether the Bible agrees is discussed below.) The WTS (and the Bible) also depicts Abel as God-fearing. Therefore, the WTS proposes that Abel never ate flesh with its blood. This is another hasty induction in WTS teaching. This is because the absence of specific permission does not substantiate that a particular act was never engaged in. For example, when it comes to food items, there is no indication of specific divine permission to drink water. But we know every living human (including Abel) consumes water. So the absence of specific permission to eat the flesh of lower animals is no more conclusive evidence that Abel never ate flesh (as the WTS suggests) than the absence of specific permission to drink water is conclusive evidence that Abel never drank water!

    Abel Kept Animals, Knew How to Butcher, and He Knew God's Word

    The Bible depicts Abel as a man who kept animals in a flock. It also depicts him as a man that knew how to butcher/dress animal flesh because he made distinction of parts (i.e. "fatty pieces"). If Abel had never eaten animal flesh then why would he have kept flocks of sheep and learned how to butcher their flesh, and also to determine the choice/best pieces? The WTS' proposition does not address this question. Abel knew what happened to dead carcasses because God had provided the instruction. Abel knew that dead carcasses became dirt/dust. Also, without a doubt Abel had observed that carcasses fertilized vegetation around their decaying bodies. Abel also would have known that without dirt/dust you do not have vegetation. This cycle was a way for Abel to know that dead carcasses helped grow vegetation just as he would have known that water and dirt grow vegetation. Here the text of Genesis 2:7 and 3:14, 19 prove interesting.

    Dust is Dead Flesh and Dead Flesh is Dust

    "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." -- Genesis 2:7
    "And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: "Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life." -- Genesis 3:14
    "For dust you are and to dust you will return." -- Genesis 3:19

    From this information Abel would have known that human flesh was made of dust and that after death the flesh returned to the dust. To this end, a dead body was synonymous with dust. As the scripture above says, "dust you are." Would Abel have had any reason to think that dust was a food item? Look again at the text quoted above of Genesis 3:14.

    "Dust" is Food

    God instructed the serpent that he would eat "dust," the serpent was assigned dust as a food item. Abel must have been fully aware of this instruction from God that dust could serve as a food item. Had Abel experimented with eating dirt/dust -- like many children have -- then he would have learned what most children decide, that dirt is not too tasty or satisfying. However, if Abel was the studious man the WTS asserts he was(1) then he had reason to at least experiment with dead carcasses as food because 1) God had indicated "dust" as a food item, 2) God had equated dust with dead flesh, 3) God had not forbidden this food item like he did the "tree of life" and 4) dead carcasses grow the vegetables God had given specific permission to eat. (Genesis 1:29-30) Given God's express permission (edict!) for the serpent to eat "dust" as a food item then Abel had probably also witnessed a serpent doing just that. Do serpents eat dirt? Not that I am aware of. But, do serpents eat carrion (dead flesh)? Yes.(2)

    Noteworthy here is specific language of the Noachian Decree. In part it says:

    "Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. Only flesh with its soul-its blood-YOU must not eat." -- Genesis 9:3 NWT (Underlining added)

    With these words God addresses not dead animals but rather "every moving animal that is alive." Further, God directs Noah that he can only eat these animals after killing them because verse 4 says Noah cannot eat the flesh with its soul. The Bible and the WTS teaches that "soul" stands for "life." So verse 4 is an instruction that Noah can only eat animals after taking their life, that is after killing them.

    Permission Required?

    The interesting aspect of the Noachian Decree is that at no point does it give specific permission to eat carrion, as though specific permission would've been required then or at any other time. This is of note because we know that today it is common for animals to eat carrion. This is true despite the Genesis statement from God that animals were given specific permission to eat vegetation. So the question is: if the absence of specific permission demonstrates that God's creatures "never ate flesh with its blood" then at why do we see God's creatures eating carrion without any record of permission to do so?

    We know God took care to record his permission for animals to eat vegetation just as he took time to record his permission for humans to eat vegetation. If 1) we assume animal creatures do what God intends them to do at any given time, and 2) since nowhere does God take care to record his permission to animals to eat carrion then we must 3) assume it was already God's intention that carrion serve as food for whatever (or whoever) wanted it. As evidenced by His statement to the serpent, God had already acknowledged "dust" as a food item, and He also equated "dust" with dead flesh.

    So, does the Bible say Abel never ate flesh with its blood? No.

    To the contrary, there is reason to believe that Abel did eat flesh, that is flesh of dead animals. If true then Abel ate flesh along with its blood because in most instances it is impossible to significantly drain blood from animals after only a short time from death.

    Of course, we have no conclusive evidence that Abel at flesh that he found dead. But, according to the Genesis account, we do have evidence that carrion (flesh of dead animals) was a food item as early as the time of Adam and Eve's sin. Therefore it is untrue that the only food item God acknowledged and permitted to animals was green vegetation. If Genesis 1:29-30 is incomplete in respect to the diet of animals then what cause do we have to conclude that it is complete as to the diet of humans?

    Marvin Shilmer

    ____________
    Reference:

    1. WTS literature depicts Abel as a thinking person. In one instance the WTS says of Abel that he "gave much thought" to an issue. (See: Anonymous, Discerning the Principle Reflects Maturity, The Watchtower, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, Inc. 1997 10/15: 28) In another instance WTS literature speaks of "Abel's spiritual insight" (See: Anonymous, Brothers Who Developed Different Attitudes, The Watchtower, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, Inc. 2002 1/15: 21)

    2. See excerpt from The Snake: An Owner's Guide To A Happy Healthy Pet by Lenny Flank, 1997 at http://www.anapsid.org/prekill2.html

  • toreador
    toreador

    It would seem quite obvious that Adam and Eve and their offspring ate animals long before the flood and the supposed permission that God gave man to eat animals after embarking from off the ark.

    Do you think that God was displeased with Cain's sacrifice because he didn't kill something to sacrifice to Jehovah? Maybe God liked to see the killing of animals since about half the animals he created ate each other and the other half ate vegetation. This being the case long before sacrifices and Adam's sin and God needing to have his son killed to buy back what Adam lost.

  • effe
    effe

    Hello Marvin,

    It would be interesting to hear your reply on the following discussion on the Touchstone Forum:

    http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=713&forum=DCForumID2

    Is there a muddling of the waters going on or are there sound arguments presented. I lost it to be honest...

    Greetings,
    Effe

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, Effe

    I have watched the apologia offered by Wrench at touchstoneforum.com. You will find point by point refutation at the following links:

    Apologetic Maneuvering of Wrench : http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=31507&mesg_id=31507 .

    Apologetic Maneuvering of Wrench II : http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=32134&mesg_id=32134 .

    Apologetic Maneuvering of Wrench III : http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=32501&mesg_id=32501 .

    Apologetic Maneuvering of Wrench IV : http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=32608&mesg_id=32608 .

    If your questions delve around the question of whether pre-Noachian peoples ate meat you will find comments in Apologetic Maneuvering of Wrench III.

    If there is something specific you question or find confusing please let me know. I?m happy to address it.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • effe
    effe

    Hi Marvin,

    happy to get in contact with you. I'm curious about the links you posted, but unfortunately they don't seem to work. But I will find that out I guess, I'll just look at the CARM-forum and try to find your posts myself.

    There is however one question I have. I read the article "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Apostolic Decree to Abstain From Blood" from the Pathways-site. I thought it was a well written document. But it leaves me with one question. If we assume that the Noachian Law speaks solely about animals killed for food, then what does Paul mean with "things strangled?" What does "things strangled" exactly mean? Bcause when it means a dead animal who died by himself (due to drowning, or something like that), then where does that leave us as regards to the Noachian Law speaking solely about animals killed for food?

    Sorry if you already adress this question in your refutation of Wrench' arguments, but I haven't read those yet.

    thanks for your help,
    Effe

    EDIT: Already Found The Threads You Were Referring To, I'll Read Them Tonight. Thank You.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, Effe

    You write:

    There is however one question I have. I read the article "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Apostolic Decree to Abstain From Blood" from the Pathways-site. I thought it was a well written document. But it leaves me with one question. If we assume that the Noachian Law speaks solely about animals killed for food, then what does Paul mean with "things strangled?" What does "things strangled" exactly mean? Bcause when it means a dead animal who died by himself (due to drowning, or something like that), then where does that leave us as regards to the Noachian Law speaking solely about animals killed for food?

    Strangulation is a means of killing an animal. The Apostolic Decree to abstain from things strangled was a prohibition of animals killed by strangulation. Strangled animals are typically unbled. Hence eating strangled animals would be contrary to the Noachian Decree.

    The Noachian Decree gave Noah permission to use living animals as a food source, and prohibitions accordingly. At no time does the Noachian Decree so much as address animals that were dead that Noah would not have to kill, or any prohibitions regarding them.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • effe
    effe

    Hi Marvin,

    Strangulation is a means of killing an animal. The Apostolic Decree to abstain from things strangled was a prohibition of animals killed by strangulation. Strangled animals are typically unbled. Hence eating strangled animals would be contrary to the Noachian Decree.

    How do we know this is true? Does "things strangled" is limited to strangulation by humans? Because other people say (i.e. Wrench) that "things strangled" can also refer to animals that died of themselves by drowing, strangulation because of vegetation or somethings like that. Where can we find for certain that "things strangled" means strangulation by a human? Beacuse if that's not the case then what does Paul mean and what are the implications for the notion that the Apostolic Decree is based on the Noachian Law? This is the only thing that can pose a discrepancy in the explanation, imho.

    Greetings,
    Effe

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, Effe

    You write:

    "How do we know this is true? Does "things strangled" is limited to strangulation by humans? Because other people say (i.e. Wrench) that "things strangled" can also refer to animals that died of themselves by drowing, strangulation because of vegetation or somethings like that. Where can we find for certain that "things strangled" means strangulation by a human? Beacuse if that's not the case then what does Paul mean and what are the implications for the notion that the Apostolic Decree is based on the Noachian Law? This is the only thing that can pose a discrepancy in the explanation, imho."

    Serious refutations of the WTS' doctrinal position on blood do not depend on "things strangled" meaning "things strangled by humans." This meaning is a strawman constructed by Wrench.

    So what does "things strangled" mean? Various commentators offer various interpretations of this. Wrench has offered citations from commentaries he believes support his view. But, as explained in my comments at CARM, not all his cited sources support this view. John Wesley's comments happen to agree with my view when he says "things strangled" refers to "from whatever had been killed, without pouring out the blood." (See: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=ac&chapter=15#Ac15_20 )

    One problem with Bible commentaries (the same is true of most other commentaries too!) is they inevitably base conclusions on inductive interpretations rather than deductive argumentation. Sound deductive conclusions are verifiably true whereas sound inductive interpretations have degrees of probability. Also, when the question is one with premature death hanging in the balance what is more prudent, 1) forming sound deductive conclusion from what the Bible actually says, or 2) forming conclusions based on what someone else says the Bible says? If Wrench wants to decide his beliefs based on something less than sound deductive argumentation of what the Bible actually says and instead accept what commentators say the Bible says then he must be willing to accept all of what those commentators say. Is he willing to do that? Or is he simply picking and choosing what happens to fit his fancy?

    What are the facts?

    1. The Noachian Decree was issued to all humankind and has not been rescinded.
    2. The Mosaic Law was issued to Jews only and has been rescinded
    3. The Noachian Decree forbade eating animals while alive. (I.e. Noah had to kill a live animal to use it as food.)
    4. The Noachian Decree forbade eating the blood of animals killed for food. (I.e., Noah had to bleed animals he killed for food.)
    5. The Noachian Decree never addresses using animals that died of themselves as a food source.
    6. The only prohibition on blood issued to Noah was in regard to eating.
    7. God himself provided unbled flesh of animals that died of themselves expressly as food to descendants of Noah that were not under the Mosaic Law.

    From these facts sound deductive arguments are formed concluding that God has no problem with humans using unbled flesh of animals that died of themselves as food. Likewise is the conclusion that God has never issued a prohibition on using donor blood for transfusion. The same facts line up with stipulations of the Apostolic Decree regarding blood and things strangled.

    If the WTS wants thinking persons to believe the Apostolic Decree to mean something more then the burden of proof lay at its feet to provide it. So far neither the WTS nor apologist like Wrench have evidenced such a claim. All they have done is assert it. Should the WTS prove true this claim then a huge problem remains: they have to prove how that conclusion supports its doctrinal position requiring JWs to respect JWs that conscientiously accept a hemoglobin agent from blood and simultaneously shun JWs that conscientiously accept a platelet agent from blood. They also have to demonstrate how it is possible to say JWs abstain from blood when in fact JWs use from blood all the time. They also have to demonstrate the validity of a teaching that forbids JWs from contributing to the donated and stored blood supply but respects JWs for using from the donated and stored blood supply.

    Apologists like Wrench have a daunting task to perform. One that is impossible in my opinion because sound deductive argumentation already demonstrates that God does not prohibit the use of donor blood for transfusion. This means WTS apologists have to refute these arguments plus prove their own conclusions true.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • toreador
    toreador

    The use of snares has been quite common throughout history and I am sure it was a common means of killing animals in bible times. Most of the time the animal would have died because of being strangled as the trap was set so as to catch the animal around the neck and tighten.

    There is of course a possibility that an occasional animal could have died from strangulation because of being caught in vegetation/ vines and hence strangled. I don't suppose the bible could cover completely every possible way an animal could have died of itself. One would have to try to determine the overall gist of the command to abstain from things strangled and go from there. It would be a very slim chance of anyone finding an animal that had strangled itself and in good enough condition for anyone to eat it. Any animal thats been dead for more than half a day, I dont think I could bring myself to eat it.

    One other point is that in effect the animal would have died of itself if it had indeed caught itself in some way or another without the aid of some human made trap/snare. I am sure Marvin has a much better explanation.

    Edited to add. I see he already did before I got my reply added.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello effe,

    happy to get in contact with you. I'm curious about the links you posted, but unfortunately they don't seem to work.

    I had the same problem but they work if you copy and paste them to the "Address" bar above.

    Marvin,

    Jst2laws

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit