What's the point in believing in the Dodo?
It didn't exactly contribute much to scientific knowledge, now, did it?
Apparently it was a tasty little beggar, though!
String theory, Relativity, and angels
by onacruse 133 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LittleToe
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Sirona
Derek
I'm talking about inspiration, intuition, imagination, belief, faith, mystery....most of these things are not something you can quantify and box up to look at in a lab, but they enhance our lives.
Just wondering: If a person such as yourself sees a ghost, would you simply conclude that you had hallucinated? What if that ghost gave you some startling information? Would you simply say that it has a scientific explanation? What if that explanation isnt there and couldn't currently be tested?
If I believe that spirits exist, that doesn't necessarily make me insane. You would say they are not reality therefore I am insane, whereas I'd say they do exist and I'm not insane. It bugs me that those who need a test tube answer for everything want to label us mad for thinking that things exist which we cannot scientifically test yet (or perhaps we have tested but it was not replicated well enough).
Its the age old debate again eh?
Funny though Derek, after meeting you at the fest, I don't feel anywhere near as scared of you as I used to in these debates you're just such a nice guy.
Sirona
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Sunnygal41
To bloviate is to speak loudly, verbosely, and at great length, without saying much. i.e., a blowhard? LOL! Terry, I appreciate your honesty and simplicity, thank you.
Now, as to your view........I totally understand where you are coming from, and why you feel and react the way you do. Some people here on this forum have expressed the same views. It is one way of reacting to what we were all subjected to with involvment in the cult of JW's. I, myself was involved for 25 years, and, I feel on one level that it was a waste. However, on a total other level, I accept and hold the view that no experience in life is all bad or all good. In fact, many of the worst experiences in our lives can teach us the most valuable lessons.
If you would bear with me, I'd like to express my view of "Santa Claus" as a way of sharing with you how I feel about many things....my "take" as you will.
I feel strongly that Santa Claus was at one point in time, a very real person. And, out of his life, there arose a whole set of "myths" and "archetypes" that have been passed down, and that have also continued to grow and be added to. A couple of other examples of this type of situation are King Arthur, and Old King Cole. And, of course, we are all familiar with the fact that our own government, here in the USA, has been guilty of rewriting history to suit their own agenda, and the many "myths" that have grown up around George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. No one would argue that they were indeed historic figures, but, we would also examine the information about their life and accept or reject on the basis of fact and proof. It seems to be a "human" reaction, some of which is motivated by selfish motives.
"Should we teach children that Santa Claus is an actually-existing person just so we can politely "fool" them into have an experience of mystical joy?" I understand that in many circumstances in the past, many of our parents did indeed do this, and when we found out that they were the ones playing Santa's role in our lives, some of us were extremely disappointed and emotionally upset. I remember when I found out that the Easter Bunny was really mom and dad..............it took a magic quality of life away from me, what you label "mystical joy". But, applying my own personal view that nothing in life is all bad or good....while I believed in SC and the EB, it was so much fun......and that was what motivated my parents to do it. They weren't being evil or hurtful.......they were trying to instill some fun and playfulness and love into my life.
"If we confuse what is true with what is NOT we lose our grasp of reality." Well, we can, if we don't remain aware. I feel that we will not go where we don't allow ourselves to go. Also, what really is reality? LOL........and there "lies the rub" as Shakespeare said, between what you and I hold as our personal tenets.
I really appreciate chatting with you about this and the exchange of viewpoints it has allowed.
Terri
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jgnat
I like this thread! Thanks, Onacruse!
About mathematics and language, I very much enjoyed Pole's contributions, which resonate with my own experiences with the deaf. Different language, different outlook on the world, different brain structure!
I think mathematics are a useful tool for us to analyze our world. The problem with language is that it's structure is complex and indefinite. We can confuse meaning by not structuring our sentence carefully. Mathematics is a simplified, symbolic language that cannot be confused. So, why not try and quantify our world using math as the language, then retranslate the result? We at least could come up with some interesting theories to test.
Pole, I am very much interested in your work. I explain to people that computers are really like simple children. They innocently believe, literally, everything you tell them. Shades of meaning are lost on them. I enjoy messing with a computer's mind.
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funkyderek
myauntfanny:
Yes, but the point was that some people do experience something they call mystical or god or something outside the normal things we experience with our other senses. That experience may or may not point to an outside source of the experience. But the fact that we can't measure such a possible source or its possible effects doesn't logically mean that it's just not there.
If there's nothing at all to measure, then there's nothing but someone's imagination anyway. If there's something which can in principle be measured, the only problem should be working out the practical points. If measuring an "experience" produces results indistinguishable from those that would result had there been no such experience, then the most reasonable position is to assume that nothing really happened.
I would have edited my post for possibly sounding bolshier than I really meant to, but you copied it into your message so there's no point. Please excuse me anyway, I got a little irritated, but shouldn't have been rude.
I didn't notice. I can be very irritating anyway so it's understandable
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funkyderek
What's the point in believing in the Dodo?
It actually existed. This fact is immutable and independent of whether you believe in it or not.
It didn't exactly contribute much to scientific knowledge, now, did it?
Actually it did. It taught us quite a lot about evolution, as it was a member of the pigeon family, apparently the descendant of an Asian bird which flew several thousand miles, and then got really lazy! It also serves as a popular and poignant reminder of the dangers of introducing new species to stable ecosystems.
Apparently it was a tasty little beggar, though!
Actually, it was considered rather tough and unpleasant, so much so that Dutch settlers referred to it as walgvogel or "disgusting bird".
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LittleToe
Tell that to the pigs...
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funkyderek
Sirona,
I'm talking about inspiration, intuition, imagination, belief, faith, mystery....most of these things are not something you can quantify and box up to look at in a lab, but they enhance our lives.
There's more to a rational worldview than boxing things up to look at in a lab. All the things you describe exist, and to varying degrees make life enjoyable or interesting. I still don't see what the problem is with being able to distinguish between the real and the unreal.
Just wondering: If a person such as yourself sees a ghost, would you simply conclude that you had hallucinated?
I certainly wouldn't rule out that hypothesis, especially if I was tired, drunk or drugged. I've hallucinated before, mostly under these conditions
What if that ghost gave you some startling information?
Then I'd have something to test. If the information was something I couldn't have hallucinated, then we'd have something worth investigating.
Would you simply say that it has a scientific explanation?
Everything has a scientific explanation, even if there are ghosts and even if everything in the universe is just the whim of the gods.
What if that explanation isnt there and couldn't currently be tested?
Then I would have to admit that I don't know what caused the event. I would try and strip down the possibilities to the most plausible hypotheses, and work out ways of testing these. If necessary, I would label it as an unsolvable mystery - but that would bug the hell out of me!
If I believe that spirits exist, that doesn't necessarily make me insane. You would say they are not reality therefore I am insane, whereas I'd say they do exist and I'm not insane. It bugs me that those who need a test tube answer for everything want to label us mad for thinking that things exist which we cannot scientifically test yet (or perhaps we have tested but it was not replicated well enough).
I didn't mean to imply that. I don't think you're insane. You seem, at least, to be able to distinguish between testable reality and the untestable. I'm not sure whether you believe in your gods in the same way you believe in Santa Claus or in the same way you believe in trees. I'm assuming you do see a difference between the two.
Its the age old debate again eh?
Yeah, I'd love to say we're getting closer to a resolution but I'm not sure....
Funny though Derek, after meeting you at the fest, I don't feel anywhere near as scared of you as I used to in these debates you're just such a nice guy.
No, it's not true. I'm scary and sharp-tongued and sarcastic. Dammit, I knew that barbecue would damage my credibility!
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myauntfanny
I didn't notice. I can be very irritating anyway so it's understandable
Ah, English men, sigh. Maddening yet adorable, and vice versa.
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Terry
http://www.randi.org/ Is a nice place to visit and familiarize yourself with James Randi.
Randi is both a magician by profession and a debunker. He uses his knowledge of how people are fooled to investigate and debunk false claims of the paranormal. The Randi Foundation offers a standing challenge.
Anyone who will submit their claim of paranormal powers to a scientific test under controlled conditions, and who passes the examination, will be paid $1million dollars. The money is kept in an escrow account. Since 1996 many have come forward and all have failed.
I suggest the following books: