Well I suppose that they could always turn around and use the prophet jonah to argue that just because things don't always go according to plan doesn't mean they are false .Then there is the invisibility argument of the world did end in relation to who has authority God or man ? The WTBTS has stated that the false prophet in revelation are the religious leaders who arrived at the UN in 1986 and declared that the UN was mankinds hope for peace in the world rather than the arrival of the invisible jesus christ in 1914. So they believe they are still the chosen ones to pronounce Gods judgements and preach the message of the kingdom .
are great crowd jehovah's witnesses?
by peacefulpete 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
NeonMadman
Well I suppose that they could always turn around and use the prophet jonah to argue that just because things don't always go according to plan doesn't mean they are false .
I've had JW's throw Jonah at me as an example of a true prophet whose prediction was not fulfilled. Unfortunately, the story of Jonah makes it clear that there was a change in circumstances. Obviously, the purpose of sending a prophet to Nineveh was so that the people there could repent and avoid the disaster that had been prophesied. Well, they did repent, from the king down to the lowest slave. It would have been absurd for God to send them a prophet to give them an opportunity to repent, and then destroy them anyway after they did so.
For the Watchtower to appeal to this account in order to justify their prophetic failures, they would have to demonstrate that there was a change in the world situation that justified God's showing mercy, as He did in Jonah's time. To my knowledge, they have never tried to make such a case. Nor could they do so very easily, since they have had numerous prophetic failures, and would have to explain each one. Further, their theology would allow for only one response that would correspond to the repentance of Nineveh, and that would be a vast majority of the world's population becoming Jehovah's Witnesses (since they could only turn to God through his organization). Obviously, that has not happened. Rather, the Watchtower has termed its prophetic failures as "mistakes." Jonah's prophecy was not a mistake; it was a success. It accomplished its purpose, which was to bring about repentance. Jehovah's Witnesses are like Jonah only in their having a bad attitude - rather than rejoice over God's mercy, Jonah went outside the city and sulked because destruction did not come as expected, much as JW's impatiently wait for all of us evil heathen to be wiped out.
The WTBTS has stated that the false prophet in revelation are the religious leaders who arrived at the UN in 1986 and declared that the UN was mankinds hope for peace in the world rather than the arrival of the invisible jesus christ in 1914.
Do you have a reference for that? The previous teaching was that the "false prophet" was the Anglo-American world power, so if they have now taken the position you describe, it would be a major shift in interpretation.
So they believe they are still the chosen ones to pronounce Gods judgements and preach the message of the kingdom .
Well, of course. Who else could be?
-
XQsThaiPoes
No one could accept the wording of that question as being generic - a Baptist, Catholic or Jew could not sincerely answer that question in the affirmative without seriously compromising his beliefs, particularly if the ones asking it were themselves JWs with their allegiance to what they consider to be "God's spirit-directed organization".
You are wrong. Baptist, Catholics and Jews pelege allegiance to the flag. The reason they wont arguable is they can't the JWs would try to stop them because 1) it would explose the system as being non religious. 2) it woulds not sell any books. 3) non-indoctrinated people would further taint the culture. If for example a catholic joined the JWs the would say "God's spirit directed organization" is the catholic church. The problem is the watchtower may promote on the sly they are gods organization but they have no proof nor do they sincerely believe it.
And in all truth most of their false prophecies are false interpetations of things in the bible. It is not like JWs are a new religion. The bible has many cases where people take what God or Jesus said and assumes it means something else. Considering they dont make house calls anymore you are stuck with what ever interpetation you have until common sense corrects it.
-
NeonMadman
You are wrong. Baptist, Catholics and Jews pelege allegiance to the flag. The reason they wont arguable is they can't the JWs would try to stop them because 1) it would explose the system as being non religious. 2) it woulds not sell any books. 3) non-indoctrinated people would further taint the culture. If for example a catholic joined the JWs the would say "God's spirit directed organization" is the catholic church. The problem is the watchtower may promote on the sly they are gods organization but they have no proof nor do they sincerely believe it.
What sort of Catholic would attend a JW assembly, submit himself for baptism, stand up with other candidates, and answer the question, "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?" in the affirmative - all the time assuming that the "spirit directed organization" being referred to is the Roman Catholic Church? He would have to be listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as "most detached from reality".
I suspect that the point you are trying to make here is that the term "Jehovah's witnesses" is a generic term that could, in theory, be applied to all Christians. But in order to make that point, you are once again extracting the question from the context in which it is asked. Could a Catholic Christian consider himself to be, in a generic sense, a witness of the God whose name (in corrupted form) is Jehovah? Sure. But the term, "Jehovah's Witnesses" has in our day and age been co-opted by a cult, and carries an implication other than its generic meaning.
I could, for example, as a Christian, consider my self to be a "saint," (since scripture does apply that term to born-again Christians), and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (in a generic sense). I also believe that we are living in the time designated by the scriptures as the "latter days" (i.e., the period of time following the appearance of the Messiah). All these things are probably true of a majority of Christian believers, but it would make no sense for them to go about referring to themselves as members of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" - not because there is anything technically wrong with the term, but because that appellation, too, has been co-opted by a cultic group.
Really, most religious group titles have a generic sense to them. Lots of Christians baptize, but only certain ones refer to themselves as Baptists. Most denominations have congregations, but only one denomination calls itself Congregationalist. Most also have elders (presbyters), but only one group calls itself Presbyterian. Trying to use these terms in the generic sense while ignoring the meaning that has become attached to them will only lead to confusion - but perhaps that is your intent?
-
XQsThaiPoes
How many missionaries are "International Bible Students" :P
The UU church BTW seems to work with multi denominational undertones. I am really not trying to confuses but so many people believe the advertising the watchtower uses. When that is not the reality. Remember the watchtower said everyone from Able, Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, Martin Luther was a Jehovah's Witness. Considering that most would consider Luther a Lutheran and John a Jew you could say that it is more to do with perception than docterine. I it would not be almost embarassingly difficult to orcastrate you could baptise anyone a Jehovahs witness oddly when the elders find out thats a different story.
-
NeonMadman
I it would not be almost embarassingly difficult to orcastrate you could baptise anyone a Jehovahs witness oddly when the elders find out thats a different story.
Well, yeah, I suppose at a big assembly it would be possible for someone to sneak through and get dunked without really believing, but why would they do that? Besides, that isn't what we were talking about. You asserted that "the JW baptism questions ... are very non-specific compared to a traditional christian baptism. A person could take them arguably with out changing their religion simular to a jewish baptism." That is the point I have been trying to address. No person of another faith could sincerely answer "yes" to the JW baptism questions, particularly the second one, unless he or she had come to believe in the JW organization as being what it claims to be, "God's spirit-directed organization."
-
XQsThaiPoes
Actually they don't stop you but they will almost demand to study with you afterward until they are satisfied you sound JW enough.
And not to confuse the issue but they clam to only be associated with "God's spirit-directed organization." for unknown reasons the never say who or what the SDO is. The definition hovers around the FDS but the FDS definition is even fuzzier which hovers around two or more anointed people working together. THe definition of anointed comes from the bible, and generally means what many people call born again christians, but the watchtower adimantly defends that only God knows who is a true born again christian and there is no way for mortal man (not even the person making the claim) to tell. You see the problem?
-
heathen
Well I was leafing through the grand climax book and if you look at the revelation 16-17 is where you find the false prophet information . They state that the false prophet is the lamb beast but they also stated that the 1986 gathering was evidence to accuse all the religionists involved to be saying peace when there was no peace by quoting jerimiah 6:14 .