Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus (page 2)

ros

Uncle Onion:
I can't remember if your leaning is toward skepticism or not, but a couple of books I would recommend for non-fundamentalist believers were written by Fr. Bargil Pixner, a scholar in Biblical archeology and topography who lives and studies in Israel. I got mine in Israel, but I think you can order them through book distributors.
1. "With Jesus Through Galilee According to the Fifth Gospel."
Pixner's belief is that the topography of the area reveals
much for interpreting the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.

2. "With Jesus In Jerusalem."
Pixner reveals some fascinating information not found in the Bible itself, some of it revealed from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources, that lends to a greater understanding of some of the things thought to be contradictions in the Gospels.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Pixner's conclusions, but the information is excellent. He presents the material in a very scholarly way imo. He has a scientist's way of presenting information without drawing dogmatic conclusions, but offers his opinions and why. He reveals the thinking of up-to-date Biblical scholars, including non-Christian Jews, on these subjects that is very different from the dogmatic doctrinal stance of churchdom, even for his own denomination.

Regardless of what conclusions you may be drawn to regarding religion, its valuable information for your interest.

Yerusalyim

JAN,

Not only do those who claim the bible to be divinely inspired have a burden of proof, so do those who do NOT believe it to be so. You've stated OPINIONS, most of which I disagree with, but no facts. You have my respect, but my unbelief as well.

Yeru

YERUSALYIM
God is truth, and light his shadow.

Plato

Skeptic

"Not only do those who claim the bible to be divinely inspired have a burden of proof, so do those who do NOT believe it to be so."

The logical fallacy here is that you cannot prove a negative. Some people believe that flying saucers from other planets have visited earth in the past. I disagree with this. Do I have to prove that there has NEVER been a flying saucer visiting earth? Do I have to prove that not even ONE has done this?

Do I have to prove that no flying saucer has EVER visited earth, including those who may have used technology unknown to us to hide themselves?

As you can see, proving a negative quickly gets absurd, and is impossible in many cases.

Rather, it makes more sense for the burden of proof to be on those claiming that flying saucers from other planets have visited earth.

Since I do not believe in the divine inspiration of any book, do I have to prove that the Bible, the Koran, the books of Vishua, and ALL holy books in the world are not inspired?

If I claimed that my personal diary was inspired by God, should you believe it? Do you have to prove me wrong? Or should you require that I prove it was written by God?

It makes more sense to require that those making a claim, especially a fantastic claim, provide the proof.

Richard

Yerusalyim

Not forgetting of course that the bible is a book of FAITH.

YERUSALYIM
God is truth, and light his shadow.

Plato

cynicus

I once battled --- when still dubious --- with an orthodox jew. He challenged me to prove that the Messiah is of anything else than a human nature (i.e. a spirit, angel, divine) using the Old Testament only. I thought "piece of cake", then I tried and failed*.

* Unless you're willing to agree to the usual WTPC bible hopscotch accompanied by a fine amount of 'Hineininterpretierung'.

Francois

Jan, don't you really mean to state "Prophecies Allegedly Fulfilled by Jesus"? I mean, the prophecies are there alright, and you're questioning that Jesus fulfilled them? Or do you mean your statement as it appears?

And to you others, it is NOT impossible to prove a negative, it is merely difficult in most cases. However, consider how easy it is to prove it is NOT raining in any given face-to-face conversation. Or that the sky is not green. Or any number of negative propositions.

Proving that you did NOT commit murder is something else altogether and it is difficult, though not impossible.

As for Matthew, I really think that given these guys were Jews, after all, and some had personal axes to grind with their own religion (perhaps in proving that Jesus was the Messiah for instance), it is not surprising that he and others went out of their way to attempt to prove that Jesus fulfilled this or that prophecy. And these are claim they made for him, he didn't make those claims for himself.

ft

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

JanH

Francoise,

Jan, don't you really mean to state "Prophecies Allegedly Fulfilled by Jesus"? I mean, the prophecies are there alright, and you're questioning that Jesus fulfilled them? Or do you mean your statement as it appears?

Well, I guess I mean "alleged prophecies allegedly fullfilled by Jesus" but that was a bit too cumbersome for a title.

What I wanted to concentrate on now was that many "prophecies" either were not prophecies at all, or not messianic in nature.

It is true that you can sometimes prove a negative. But Skeptic is generally correct. The situations where you CAN prove a negative is where you can demonstrate that observational consequences are absent. This is generally only true about localized claims. Ie. I can prove there is no huge "Flying Saucer" in the center of Bergen. I cannot prove no such thing exists anywhere on the planet.

For religious and other claims, the rule is simple: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." This is a rule that most people apply in their daily lives, and to everybody elses religion. Consistency and intellectual honesty requires that you also apply it to your own belief system. That is the reason I am no longer a JW, no longer a Christian and no longer a theist.

Those who claim the Bible is an extraordinary book inspired by a superhuman source, will have to present the evidence. It is perfectly legitimate to reject the claim without specific evidence against its supernatural origin, since that would be the default position. Of course, skeptics have more than a few heavy arguments against Bible inspiration and in particular inerrancy.

- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]

Francois

UUuuummm. I'm waiting on that same evidence of divine inspiration for the bible myself. DO let me know if you hear any.

Actually, I kinda like that cumbersome title. It IS accurate, after all.

ft

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

Skeptic

Francoise,

"And to you others, it is NOT impossible to prove a negative, it is merely difficult in most cases. However, consider how easy it is to prove it is NOT raining in any given face-to-face conversation. Or that the sky is not green. Or any number of negative propositions."

I stand corrected. My statement was dogmatic, and like most dogmatic statements I make, it ended up being proven wrong! Good work, I like it when people prove me wrong.

YERUSALYIM
"Not forgetting of course that the bible is a book of FAITH."

I understand. However, your original statement was about doubters having to prove that the Bible was not inspired. That was the issue I dealt with. Faith does not necessarily deal with proof.

Richard

uncle_onion

Ros

I dont know what I am leaning towards, hopefully the truth. I believe that there is a God (I think!) but i dont know if I can accept the Bible as his word.

UO

Alleged Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

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