What is faith?

onacruse

Of course, as JWs it was automatic: Read Hebrews 11:1--

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

What gooble-de-gook.

So, just because one has an "assured expectation of things hoped for," that constitutes faith? Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini had mutually 'assured expectations [by treaty, army, and mutual evaluations of the world-scene];' did that make them faithful?

And what does "evident demonstration of realities though not beheld" mean? It's either real, or it's not. If it's not, then there is no 'evident demonstration.' If not "beheld," then how can it be "evident"? Imagine walking into a court of law and saying "Here's my evidence, even though you can't see anything real in my hands."

And, to add fuel to the fire: it's the same Greek word (pistos) that is arbitrarily translated into English as either "faith" or "belief," depending on the translator's choice.

In other words, Hebrews 11:1 is saying nothing more, and nothing less, than: "If you believe it, you can call it faith."

And then, of course: "You are saved by your faith."

Craig

shamus

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

In order to have faith, you must have faith in that person. Let's say that your friend has picked you up at the same time for work for a week... you have faith that that person will pick you up at the same time.

Now take the bible, for instance. A book of goobleygook (good word for it) that not only contradicts itself, but happily explains how people should kill they're children, men, women... that doesn't make sense. Throw in some baloney about wars and nation rising against nation, and you have it. What you need to find out is do you believe that the bible is from god? Is it true?

You know and I know it isn't.

Another example of circular reasoning. When you program in Excel, you get an error message when you use circular formulas. When it's the bible, people just don't give a damn and keep on having faith.

Satanus

Normal people have beliefs based on experiences, beliefs arrived at through rational thought, deductions based on all available evidence. When experience, rational thought and deductive thinking fail to propel one where he wants to be belief wise; when those methods fail to bring one to the desired conclusion, faith steps in and does the job. Faith enables the denial of reality. It is the builder of fantasies. So, what is faith? Denial of present reality, i suppose. S

jgnat

Y'know, I have been thinking about this, too. I am trying to find an article that can express my own tangled feelings on this subject, but I am having a bit of trouble with google.

Do you also find it disturbing that a Christian article is titled, "Faith Facts", or "Using Evidence and Reason to promote Biblical...."

I am pretty sure my faith is independent of facts and evidence, outside what I can vouch for from my own personal experience.

.............................

HERE is the article I was thinking of:

http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm

The difference is somewhere between faith (ascentia) "I have faith the sky will be blue tomorrow" and faith (feducia), "I have faith in my husband's love for me."

onacruse

In order to have faith, you must have faith in that person.

Actually, that's not what Hebrews 11:1 says; nothing about a "person" stated there. Of course, the rest of the chapter has all kinds of personal 'examples,' but this fundamental Biblical definition of "faith" is not based on a person. Paul (if he was the real author of Hebrews) leads up to that conclusion, but the premise is not based on Christ.

Another example of circular reasoning. When you program in Excel, you get an error message when you use circular formulas.

Excellent example! I've been caught oh so many times by the same "A references A" error message. LOL

2 Timothy 3:16.

shamus

Yes, ona. You're right... I'm comparing apples to oranges there. But the reasoning is the same.. er, um, that's how the jehobers reasoned with me when I studied.

As for Satanus's comments, well, I lack the brain capacity to understand what you meant. But I have faith that you are correct.

Satanus

Shamus

Come, be my follower;)

S

William Penwell

I never have had anyone that can explain what that scripture means. It comes down to blind faith. You are correct that passage in Hebrews is a contradiction in terms. I mean how can you put trust in something that you don't know exists?? How can you know something exists unless you have had experiences to prove it exists? So like you said it is all circular arguments.

Will

onacruse

Satanus:

Normal people have beliefs based on experiences, beliefs arrived at through rational thought, deductions based on all available evidence. When experience, rational thought and deductive thinking fail to propel one where he wants to be belief wise; when those methods fail to bring one to the desired conclusion, faith steps in and does the job. Faith enables the denial of reality. It is the builder of fantasies. So, what is faith? Denial of present reality, i suppose.

As per the Greeks (at least the philosophers, anyway), the only true "belief" was rational thought. So your remark raises an interesting question: Perhaps the "idea" of faith was the natural consequence of the disappointed rationalisms of 'ordinary' man, in the face of reality: "the things hoped for"? As perhaps, the parousia of Christ being invisible (JW)? or, that we have been in a "judgment period" since 1844 (SDA)? Or, the simple human, hoping for something, grasping for something, and along comes a religion and promises him/her fulfillment, even if it be as a suicide-bomber?

And yet, we so often see people turn around and blame their "beliefs (as if imposed by others)," instead of facing their own "faith (as a personal matter)."

How the worm turns.

shamus

Well said, Will.

In other words, you could say that faith in the bible, as it exists now, is illogical.

What is faith?

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