Hello XBHERE.
After due and very prolonged consideration, I've concluded that a Bible-believer must believe in the Deity of Christ.
From that, the Deity of the Holy Spirit is a small step, Biblically speaking.
Craig
Trinity
by XBEHERE 15 Replies latest jw friends
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Justin
If you want to understand the Trinity, read C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, a book which had been around for years. Lewis conveyed very simple but profound ideas. For example, Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. That being the case, since what man begets (procreates, generates) is man, then what God begets is God. Whether you want to say "a God" or simply "God," the One begotten is a real divine person, not simply one who is called "god." Likewise, the Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and Son, but is so real that a Third Person is involved.
Yet, as there is only one Father, there is only one God. One of the ancient writers (Irenaeus) compared the Son and Spirit to the arms of the Father.
Some posters have tried to convey the formal concepts behind the Trinity doctrine, but what is overlooked is that, for many Christians, Jesus has actually replaced the Father and is for them the only God they want. Of what use is it to convince people that "Jesus is God" if God is really a Trinity? Isn't that misleading? That's why, even though after leaving JWs I became a Trinitarian Christian, I finally realized that the churches never really explain the Trinity but are simply content to worship Jesus. So I think the real issue facing JWs is simply the fact that they belong to an organization which exerts rigid control over their lives, and they must decide what they are going to do about it.
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Steve Lowry
Oh yea, the Trinity thang. Well, if?n you believe the Bible (for me I just don?t anymore if it?s the word of God or just a nice book with funny stories), then Jesus is Divine. He is God in the flesh, come to earth. While here on earth His divine nature was more implied than explained, and there were very sound and logical reasons for this approach. However, there are plenty of scriptures and passages that show just exactly who He was. As for Jesus being submissive to the Father, this doesn?t conflict with the Trinity concept. Jesus said the Father is greater than I. He never said the Father is better than I. This is an important distinction because, greater is a relative position and better is a statement of quality. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in quality but are different in position. Just as a father is greater than his son in mortal terms. But the father is not better, or that is to say he is not more human then son. Both are equally human, but different in position. It?s kinda like that, the way I understand it.
Now, do I understand how all three can be One, but yet separate beings at the same time? Oh no. But therein lies faith to believe I suppose. When you stop to think about it, can we really pretend to know God?s nature fully considering we are but mortal beings. Nah.
People (especially former JW?s recently out) get all caught up in the whole Trinity thing. I say, relax and don?t worry about it too much. If you believe in the Bible then look for the implicit where Jesus? Deity is displayed and not so much the explicit. It?s in there, all over the place, if?n you wanna see it.
That Jesus was just an angel, is nonsense at best and blasphemous at worst.
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Mary
I don't believe the Trinity, makes no sense to me at all. First of all, Jesus was a Jew and Jews have never worshipped a 3 in 1 God. I've taken some Religious Studies courses and I'm not surprised learn that alot of professors affirm that the Trinity wasn't officially accepted until the 4th century CE. They say that in all likelihood, the scriptures that make it sound as though Jesus is part of a trinity probably weren't there in the beginning, but as the division between Jews and Messianic Jews (who became Christians) grew wider and wider, their ideas about Jesus became more and more rigid. Christian writings began to elevate his position more and more until they had him equal with Jehovah. There are other discrepancies in the bible which we now know are not true. The scriptures that tell us that the Romans use to release a prisoner to the Jews "as was the custom", is not true. There is absolutely no historical evidence that the Romans ever did such a thing. There is also no historical record of a mass murder by Herod where all the boys 2 years of age and under were slaughtered.
I also read in The First Three Centuries of the Church that one of the deciding factors in the Church making the Trinity a "fact" is that they knew that the Jews worshipped a monothesis God---Yahweh. If Christians did that, they felt that it would reduce Christianity to Judaism.
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XBEHERE
Does anyone hate when ignorant posters bash "the watchtowers teachings" but don't acknowlege that they predate the wts by thousands of years in some cases.
Don't you hate it when posters respond to questions presented in threads without actually answering the questions? Arrogance is such an interesting quality? I wonder if animals think so much of themselves individually as many humans do.
XQs.... if you want to write an editorial, send it into a newspaper or start your own thread.
But thanks for responding anyway.
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Steve Lowry
"I don't believe the Trinity, makes no sense to me at all. First of all, Jesus was a Jew and Jews have never worshipped a 3 in 1 God."
When Jesus came upon the scene many old Jewish headsets got changed. As a matter of fact, Jews still don?t recognize or accept Jesus, to this day.
"I've taken some Religious Studies courses and I'm not surprised learn that alot of professors affirm that the Trinity wasn't officially accepted until the 4th century CE. . . ."
Yes, most folks who do a study into the history of the Church and the Trinity learn these things.
"There are other discrepancies in the bible which we now know are not true. The scriptures that tell us that the Romans use to release a prisoner to the Jews "as was the custom", is not true. There is absolutely no historical evidence that the Romans ever did such a thing. There is also no historical record of a mass murder by Herod where all the boys 2 years of age and under were slaughtered."
When it comes to who Jesus claimed to be as well as who His followers claimed Him to be, all we really have is the Bible. Now, if you want to accept some of the Bible as accurate and others parts of it as not accurate, then be careful you?re not making your criteria based on what it is that "doesn?t make sense" to you (i.e., the Trinity).
"I also read in The First Three Centuries of the Church that one of the deciding factors in the Church making the Trinity a "fact" is that they knew that the Jews worshipped a monothesis God---Yahweh. If Christians did that, they felt that it would reduce Christianity to Judaism."
While I?m not familiar with this work, I do know that many authors (that I have read) interpret their point of view of history as a matter of fact. Comments like these are sometimes based on what the author believed the people of that time?s motives were, and that can be a pretty hard thing to understand or determine a couple of centuries removed.
Mary, here?s how I look at it. Trinity, shminity. Call it what you want. Believe in it if you want, or don?t. I don?t necessarily believe in the "Trinity" myself (nor do I disbelieve it either). But if the scriptures haven?t been modified to re-describe who Jesus was, but the scriptures are true and accurate, then it seems rather obvious that Jesus was Divine. There are many, many passages of scripture that clearly show He was much more than just a man or an angle. He was God according to Scripture, the way I see it. And logic dictates that if there can be only One God then ergo, the two (Father and Son) must be equally God. I don?t presume to fully grasp this concept, but then there are lots of things I don?t fully grasp. But that doesn?t mean these things don?t exist (the vastness of the Universe, Light and it?s speed, etc.)
There?s a thing called a Trinity wheel. It shows many connections of scripture of the Old Testament to the New Testament concerning Christ?s Deity. I wish I could find it. I?ll look for it and if I can find it I?ll post it on the forum. It really helps one to see who Jesus claimed Himself to be as well as who Scripture claimed Him to be.
I?m not really interested here in a Trinity pro?s and con?s debate. Reason being, that I am now at the point in my spiritual evolution that I don?t even know if I accept the Bible as the word of God anymore anyway. But, when I went through the transition many years ago from the Jehovah?s Witness concept of plural gods to the Christian concept of one God with three personalities, I had to relearn the whole thing and it gave me great insight to Jesus, according to Scripture. This seems to be an emotionally charged issue for many folks. I have no emotional involvement with it anymore. But its an interesting issue and one that comes up from time to time on forums such as these.
Steve