by SwampThing 20 Replies latest jw friends
But now that I know I am dealing with a man who?s mind is under the control of the WTS, is it right for me to take advantage of his weakness?
sorry if I missed part of what you said, but who are you referring to? And if this person is still in the borg and you aren't, then how could you be taking advantage?
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
I truly appreciate all of your responses. You have all helped contribute to my understanding regarding the question I posed. This has to be one of the friendliest and most helpful discussion boards on the Internet.
Thank you all once again for making me feel welcome, and for entertaining my questions.
Respectfully,
Swamp Thing
Hi Valis,
The person I am referring to is a man that I have known for over a decade, a man I befriended, and who pretended to be my friend. He is a devout JW. Recently, I have discovered that he has been taking advantage of me in some very serious ways, and has caused a great deal of difficulty in my life.
For me to take the knowledge I have about the cult-atmosphere of the WTS and use it against him would be like taking advantage of an adult who has the mind of a child. If an adult with the mental capacity of a 7 year old injured me in some way, I would not defend against the injury to the same level as if he had been in full control of his faculties. In other words, I feel sorry for this guy that he does not think for himself.
If you had a friend who was ruining his life with drugs, and was no longer thinking clearly, what would you do? I don?t mean the occasional joint or two, but selling his wedding ring to buy more crack. Would you recognize that it is the drugs, and not his normal self that is making his decisions?
Does that help explain it?
Thanks, friend....
Swamp Thing
OK Swampy...I think I get it now. So let's assume that you were to show this friend the information. A couple things could happen, the worst probably being him not talking to you anymore. I don't think showing him information is taking advantage of him at all. Its more like trying to argue w/a brick wall I would imagine. Also too, don't forget that our friends are ultimately responsible for what they become. If say after you show him whatever info, he rejects it? Or thinks you are the crazy one...It isn't easy losing friends, but just like the crack addict, one has to welcome change in order to get better and in some cases no matter how much money, time or patience in the world will help them come around. One hopes your friend will though and you can not feel so bad for him.
Sincerely,
District overbeer
Hey Valis,
I am not trying to show this person the error of his ways as I know now that he has given his mind over to the Borg. He will not listen to me. In fact, he has not spoken with me directly for several months. I believe I am experiencing a form of shunning, if a non-JW can be shunned. Before I came to this board and discovered how The Society controls its members, I thought he was just trying to rip me off because he is a jerk. Now I can see where his actions are the direct result of his Watch Tower induced thinking.
What I have been trying to say is that because of our past business dealings, I could do a lot of harm to him if I shared certain information with the people he is responsible to in business. In fact, there is a great possibility that I could cause him to lose his livelihood, and maybe face local, State and Federal fines, if not possible prison time. My dilemma is that since his mind is being controlled by the WTS, is he responsible for his business decisions which have led to our current disputes?
Hopefully that will clear things up a bit more. Thanks for the help you have been offering. I truly appreciate it.
Swamp Thing
How many other people is he harming the same way he harmed you? You questioned earlier at what point an individual is responsible for their actions even if being controlled by the group...the "mob mentality"...safety in numbers...innocent by reason of insanity???
Good to see you again, SwampThing. I wonder if your old acquaintance realizes what a quality friendship he has lost. Here is a book that argues that personal responsibility remains, even in a cult.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/books/ucnr/ucnr-intro.html
As for your original question,
If the person I am describing decides one day that he or she just doesn?t want any part of it any longer, and just doesn?t go back, do they still try to make you appear before the elders to explain yourself and accept their form of justice? If so, why would you show up for that meeting or whatever it?s called?
The elders are very used to being obeyed. The congregation members are very used to following. I have seen both reactions from xJW's here. Some go through the motions in an attempt to sway their former mentors and friends, some, like Valis, say byeeeee, so long, see ya later, maybe. I say, every xJW leaves their own way. I think each one of them yearns to be heard. That rarely happens, though.
On the elders' side, they have a very strong need to keep their worldview. That means that there must be something wrong with the exiting JW, because why would anyone in their right mind leave the "truth"?
What I have been trying to say is that because of our past business dealings, I could do a lot of harm to him if I shared certain information with the people he is responsible to in business. In fact, there is a great possibility that I could cause him to lose his livelihood, and maybe face local, State and Federal fines, if not possible prison time. My dilemma is that since his mind is being controlled by the WTS, is he responsible for his business decisions which have led to our current disputes?
Okay, some JWs tend to justify in their minds taking business shortcuts with people who are not their "brothers." Some even take business shortcuts with others in their own faith. BUT... they and they alone are responsible for those choices. NOT the cult. Yes, their minds are messed up, yes they do despicable things like shun their own families and let their kids die from refusing blood, and a bunch of other rotten things. But they themselves hang a LOT on their so-called honesty.
Here's an example: My husband was raised JW. He has ethics and morals. He chooses to have them. The JWs did not necessarily provide those, but he didn't have to swim upstream to develop them either. A few years ago, we both did some contract work. He was paid on a 1099 for about $6000 worth of work. I was paid in cash, under the table for about $4000 of work. He declared it ALL on our tax statement, even though we had a fricken huge tax bill. We could have certainly gotten away with not declaring the $4000 and saved a hell of a lot of money in taxes. He CHOSE to do this. Your ex-"friend" CHOSE to cheat you. His sleazy business dealings have very little to do with his insane religion, and everything to do with him thinking he can get something for nothing, and you will do nothing to make him accountable.
My opinion? Give your info to the appropriate people. It is not helping him to excuse his dishonest and illegal behaviour. You don't have a friendship to save, that is already lost; you do have your associates to protect. And his actions have damaged you, not in a personal whacked out JW way, but in a legitimate business way. Do what you have to do. He is solely responsible for his actions.
Odrade
ConcernedMom:
He has actually hurt quite a few people, though I did not know about them until this current situation arose. What is sad is that a number of really nice and caring people are going to be harmed, some in a big way, by helping this guy out of problems he has created. Like myself, they did not know who they were dealing with. I apologize for being so vague, but I don?t know if he, or someone from his congregation, might read this forum. Thanks for your comments.
jgnat:
Thank you for your kind words. No, he doesn?t know what sort of friend I am. Unfortunately, the friendship was one-sided. My wife tried to point this out to me on many occasions, but I kept telling her "you just don?t know this guy. He has strong convictions and would never lie." Obviously she knew him better than I did. There is something to be said about a woman?s intuition...:)
Thanks again,
Swamp Thing
Thank you for your comments and your opinion, Odrade. It?s a pleasure to meet you.
Your argument is well made, and one that I agree with. Maybe I am wringing my hands over nothing. However, I take it very seriously when the course of action I am considering could effect so many lives. I believe it deserves more than just a passing thought.
But you are correct, when the BS is boiled away, he chose the consequences when he chose the action. Thank you again for your input.
Swamp Thing
