Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower) (page 3)

Jim_TX

Dang!

When I read 'April 1st' Watchtower... all I could think of was an April Fools' issue.

*kicks dirt* *walks away*

Jim TX

144,000 clearly referred to Jewish Christians. as has been noted here, it has a connotation with the 12 tribes of Israel. Yet a far greater work among gentiles was to be done and the number coming forth from them would in comparison to the Jewish converts be a great multitude.

So the number of 144,000 is significant only for it's connection with the 12 tribes.

Undaunted Danny

Fore note:I read none of the preceding postings or the Watchtower article cited.What I have posted is my WBTS 'numerology' indoctrination up to ca. 1990.

Let's see how we compare,how much 'new light' has flickered.

Watchtower Anachronistic Alchemy;The number #7 is the 'perfect' number. The number #3 means emphasis The number #6 is one less than #7(the 'perfect' number) so it means imperfection. The infamous # 666 is the 'imperfect # 6 three times ( remember 3 is the number for emphasis) so, 6, three times is imperfection big time so it must be diabolical. Watchtower final countdown: WBTS links up with 666 ( joins 8th king United Nations) so 666 now equals $$$ [ Footnote taken from: Read Danny's Deliberations : WT dogma of a limited 'little flock' of 144,000 'anointed JW elite going to heaven? If you read the entire 10th chapter of the gospel of John, you will see for yourself, John 10:16: "I have other sheep, which are, "not of this fold," those also I must bring, and they will all become one flock. "JESUS is OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO THE CONVERSION of THE GENTILES!! Not two 'classes of people'. Also Revelation chapter 7 ,the ref. to the numerical 144,000, this entire chapter is taken by the watchtower as highly symbolic....
.... Yet they take out of context the 144,000 sum as literal. By the way I DON"T want to go to heaven. The boogie-man of the "evil slave;" the precursor to the "apostate". Look at this parable. The evil slave did something to deem him evil. What did he do? He presumptuously set a date (for him to say, 'my master is delaying'). Hello, it was the 'Zions Watchtower' who set the date (1914). Everything about the WT's ivory tower dogma is twisted!!
Apostate is defined in the dictionary as a "devout believer, turned destroyer", that is exactly what I am. I don't speak for other ex- members. The Watchtower's cult dictionary def. is (get this) "...somebody who has left the 'truth' and because of 'maddening envy' hates his former brothers'. Give me a break, man, I am not envious, I just want my money back. If you've read this far, the, 'emperor has no clothes,' he is butt-naked.].

jschwehm

A very interesting book to read for a totally different perspective on the Book of Revelation is entitled "Joy in Our Weakness-A Gift of Hope from the Book of Revelation" by Marva Dawn. It turns out that the book of Revelation was one of the last books to be accepted as part of the New Testament canon by the bishops of the Catholic Church.

In any case, there are a variety of ways to interpret the book of Revelation and I found the perspective in this book to be rather encouraging and reasonable. Unlike our experiences with the millenialism of the JWs.

I hope you guys enjoy it.

Jeff S.

"A Recovering Millenialist"

ozziepost

If you read the entire 10th chapter of the gospel of John, you will see for yourself, John 10:16: "I have other sheep, which are, "not of this fold," those also I must bring, and they will all become one flock. "JESUS is OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO THE CONVERSION of THE GENTILES!! Not two 'classes of people'.

But not so obvious to the WTS!!!! Interestingly something "obvious" is dismissed by the WTS as being "apostate" reasoning!!!!!!!!!

Carmel

Unfortunately, the witlesses, as the vast majority of Christianity, think that the last book of the bible, (Revelationszzz) was written only to Christian audience and only about Christian history. If this were true then all the speculation about the beasts and great crowds etc, etc having to do with this denomination or that, (in this case JWs think most of it applies to them) might have some validity. I prefer to think the bible is not an exclusive text, that it is for all of humanity and is a recapitulation of religious history tracing the evolution of human spiritual evolution through the monistic religions of pre-Judisam, Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam. If one studies the history of Islam, much of the ideas iterated in Revelations can be seen as manifest in Islamic history. The beast with the 666 could be understood as the political stongman who opposed the Imamimate and arose to kill as many Shiites as he could. Mu'awiyah arose to appose the Imam Ali in the year 666 of the Muslim calendar.

Food for thought!

carmel

cain

it's all BS so who really gives a f**k?

cain

Motema Bolingo

In Revelation chapter 7 verse 4, John says : "And I HEARD the number of those who where sealed ..." and in verse 9 : "After these things I SAW, and, look ! a great crowd ..."

*** In other words, John doesn't see the 144 000, but he hears the number. After that, he sees a great crowd.

In Revelation chapter 14 verse 1, John declares : " And I SAW ... a hundred and forty-four thousand ...", but he doesn't see a great crowd (in fact, he doesn't mention it).

Conclusion : The 144 000 and the great crowd are the same group of Christ's followers.

Jacques

ozziepost

I agree with you, Jacques.

rocketman

I think that the Gateway Bible commentary on these verses is interesting:

"John's list does not match exactly any of the traditional lists of the tribes of Israel (for example, Gen 35:23-26; 49:1-28; Deut 33:6-25), either in the names or in the order of the names. Most conspicuously, it is a messianic or distinctly Christian list in that it begins with Judah, the ancestor of David and of Jesus, the "Root of David" (5:5). Just as the elder's voice had announced earlier "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (5:5), so now John heard a list of tribes announced beginning with the tribe of Judah. In each case, however, what John immediately saw was something quite different from what was announced. Instead of "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" he had seen "a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain" (5:6), and now instead of 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel he sees a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb (v. 9).

In each case John's vision accomplishes a transformation (compare Gundry 1987:260). A Lion is transformed into a Lamb, and 144,000 Jews are transformed into an innumerable multitude from every nation on earth! The great multitude, wearing white robes and . . . holding palm branches in their hands (v. 9), break out in worship of God and the Lamb in a manner recalling chapters 4-5 (v. 10) and are answered by the amen of all the angels . . . standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures (vv. 11-12; compare 5:11-14). At this point, one of the elders (also familiar from chaps. 4-5) asks John, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?" (v. 13). When John disclaims any knowledge of who they are (v. 14), the elder answers his own question: "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (v. 14).....

The effect of the elder's initiative is to assure John's readers that the elder's explanation of the innumerable multitude comes from God and can be trusted. The explanation includes both the "prehistory" of the group John sees (v. 14) and a glimpse of what is in store for them (vv. 15-17). The prehistory is familiar to John from 6:9-11, where "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained" (6:9) were told to "wait a little longer" until their full number was complete (6:11). These "souls" have come out of the great tribulation by martyrdom, and now the implication is that their number is complete. They can be recognized as the same group by the white robes they have been given (7:9; compare 6:11)--like the white garments of the twenty-four elders in heaven. The identification of the souls under the altar with the innumerable multitude before the throne of God testifies to the continuity John sees between the fifth and the sixth seals.

If this is so, it is important to assure the churches of the vindication of those who are (or will be) martyred. So the elder's explanation continues. The martyrs' vindication, he points out, consists partly of what John has just seen--that they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple (v. 15)--and partly of what he has not yet seen (vv. 15-17). The conclusion to the sixth seal provides a glimpse of the final blessedness of God's people. God will spread his tent over them (v. 15). They will never be hungry or thirsty again, and they will be protected from the scorching heat of the sun (v. 16; compare Is 49:10). The Lamb will become their shepherd, leading them to springs of living water (compare 21:6), and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes (v. 17; compare 21:4)"

Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower)

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