Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower)

ozziepost

I wonder how many readers of The Watchtower have noticed the seeming inconsistency of the 144,000 teaching in the April 1st issue?

After discussing the symbolic nature of the numbers 666 on the wild beast comes this statement:

"Immediately after disclosing the number 666, Revelation mentions 144,000 followers of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, who have his name and the name of his Father, Jehovah, written on their foreheads."

This is followed by this statement:

"The mark, whether on the right hand or on the forehead, figuratively speaking, is a symbol that identifies its bearer ........."

Thus on the one hand, the number 666 is utterly symbolic and figurative whilst in the same context the number 144,000 is literal!!!

Why one and not the other? Or why aren't both symbolic? Wouldn't that seem more logical?

Probably, but it wouldn't fit in with the inherited Joe Ratherflawed theology that the WTS are saddled with.

Ozzie

tazmaniac

And remember going over and over and over these things in the never ending and oft repeated study in the Revelation book ?

confusedjw

The 666 *is* a "mark"

and

the 144,000 all *have* the "mark" of their Father.

666 = apples

144,000 = oranges

*** This does not mean I agree with number 144,000 being literal or not, but in the context of the argument presented on the WT, April 1st they are referring to the "marks" being symbolic and not literal

Gopher

The 144,000 being a literal number is very illogical. According to JW doctrine, God anointed only this number from the first century all the way through to the year 1935. From the second century until the late 19th century, only about 70 humans worldwide, per year, were qualified to be selected for heavenly life. Then suddenly in the 19th century, God starting choosing thousands and thousands. Then in 1935 suddenly he stopped!

Another interesting thing is that the 144,000 = 12 "symbolic" tribes x 12,000 per tribe as listed in Revelation. So you have two symbolic numbers, 12 and 12,000 equalling a LITERAL number, 144,000?

That's incredible!

blondie

Let me play devil's advocate. How would you get around this WTS "logic"?

Reasoning book p 167 Heaven

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to "a great crowd, which no man was able to number." If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the "great crowd." Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus? statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: "There are many invited, but few chosen."

Elsewhere

Why one and not the other? Or why aren't both symbolic?

The GB apparently has a "Literal vs. Figurative" quick reference that they use to look these things up. They also use this to determine when prophetic days and "times" should be counted as literal days or prophetic years.

blondie

Actually, Elsewhere, in both situations, the WTS teaching that the 144,000 is literal is borrowed by the Adventists, and the prophetic day for a year is also a borrowed doctrinial teaching from the Adventists. Many JWs think Russell came up with the idea on his own and don't realize it is tainted.

Blondie

stillajwexelder

I love your sharp analytical skills Blondie

heathen

I think it more obvious that the number 666 given to the beast is symbolic along with the symbolism of there actually being a beast . I agree with the statement that if the 144k number is symbolic then why is there also a great crowd without number ? I can also agree that even the anointed in the first century could be discharged because of apostasy or unwillingness so then new ones had to be selected. There is also the evil slave class that is mentioned . I don't think the 144k in revelation has anything to do with first cetury christians but are selected during the time of the end because the great crowd is mentioned that they come off victorious during the time of the end. I do notice that the word anointed is not in revelation but again I guess we are to assume they are anointed because Gods spirit can only bear witness with the spirit of anointed people , so it kinda fits with the scriptures . Man this topic is recycled , LOL

blondie

Are you teasing me, stilla?

Numbers both literal and symbolic (April 1st Watchtower)

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