Excellent Chronology website

by City Fan 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    For anyone who's interested, I just wanted to post a link to a great chronology website I've found.

    You can find it at: http://www.caeno.org/

    Basically it deals with Babylonian astronomy, king lists, chronicles, synchronisms etc. I'm not sure if the site discusses all the '14 lines of evidence' of Carl Olaf Jonsson, but from what I've seen it goes into extreme detail.

    For instance the site goes through VAT 4956 line by line with star charts for each part of the astronomical diary which equates to 31 pages just on this one tablet alone.

    The site has no mention of things like bible prophecies or religion so it could be a good link to send to JWs who wouldn't read a book like Jonsson's.

    CF.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Thanks, City Fan, I have stored in my Chronology Folder.

    Blondie

  • Voyager
    Voyager

    Thanks City Fan.--Excellent!

    Voyager

  • johnathanseagull
    johnathanseagull

    CityFan.....nice link, some great stuff to be found there

    JGull (Wolves Fan!!!)

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Thanks, City Fan! This should prove interesting.

    What did they say about Line 18 of the VAT4956, do you know. Sachs/Hunger said the "moon" was below the "bright star behind theLion's Foot" on that date. Neugebaur presumed the BSBLF (MUL KUR sa TIL GIR UR-A) was the same as beta-Virgins which was the reference in Line 3 by Sachs/Hunger as beta-Virginis, but that reference was another star, the "Rear Foot of the Lion" (GIR ar sa UR-A). He never figured it out. But Sachs/Hunger understood they were different stars!!! They lied in line 18 though since it was the wrong star which is proved by Venus being in that location on the 15th of Sivan below beta-Virginis. So beta-Virginis indeed IS the BSBLF but that means that the RFL must be sigma-Leonis.

    Sachs/Hunger in their "Diaries" gave references to all the primary star references and for some reason did not list the BSBLF as "eta-Virginis" which is their assignment in the VAT4956. I'll check out this line-for-line and see what they say about Lines 3, 14 and 18. If they don't quite understand the significance then I'll write the authors just to get a little history.

    Part of their problem, of course, will be not using the original transliteration. If they just went directly from Sachs/Hunger's translation then they will have missed this. It should also be interesting what they do about Line 3 where the moon at sunset is supposed to be 4 cubits below beta-Geminorum. Of course, all the planetary positions (except Venus in Line 18) work out perfectly. It's not about the accurate references in the text we are concerned with but those that don't work out and whether or not they were "intentional" references to some other date or just "errors", etc. But it's interesting there is more interest in these texts! Thanks for this reference!!!!

    JC

  • City Fan
    City Fan
    It should also be interesting what they do about Line 3 where the moon at sunset is supposed to be 4 cubits below beta-Geminorum.

    Actually, it's line 8. They have a star chart showing the Moon was 4 cubits below beta-Geminorum on 22 May 568 BC. I have different software that shows the same thing. Try using declination or better still an ecliptic grid for your results. It definitely isn't an altitude measurement. Below, above, in front of, and behind all refer to normal stars on the ecliptic. If you don't have an ecliptic grid then right/ascension-declination values will be close.

  • stichione
    stichione

    Pretty good site, I added it to my favorites. Is it run a an XJW?

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Actually, it's line 8. They have a star chart showing the Moon was 4 cubits below beta-Geminorum on 22 May 568 BC. I have different software that shows the same thing. Try using declination or better still an ecliptic grid for your results. It definitely isn't an altitude measurement. Below, above, in front of, and behind all refer to normal stars on the ecliptic. If you don't have an ecliptic grid then right/ascension-declination values will be close.

    Oops! Yes I stand corrected. Thanks. Can you give me more information? What program are you using and how it is calculated.

    Basically what I call the "approaching distance" presumes that at some point the below or in front of references gradually decline to zero and then again increase after the star is "passed". It is not the diagonal distance between the moon and the star which will never become zero. Besides that you have to presume that "below" is directly below at the time of sunset in relation to the horizon at sunset, not below with reference to the path trajectory of that star. Now, of course, that doesn't mean the diagonal measurements didn't occur, but the "approaching distance" measurements did also. The Babylonians did have a concept of when the moon was "LAL" or equal to a certain star thought not directly on top of it and then it "passed" that star. That presumption is thus that "4 cubits below" would eventually become ZERO below and then increase in cubits "behind" a certain imaginary point. That would not be a diagonal reference.

    Do you think, maybe, you could provide a graphic of how the measurement is done? I guess it does not matter since with "Skymap" when aligned with Babylon on May 22 568BCE it wasn't 4 cubits diagonal at sunset either. Are your program at "sunset" shows the moon 4 cubits below beta-Geminorium or diagonally FROM BABYLON? Thanks.

    I hope you're having fun with this!!

    Also, what about lines 14 and 18. You know that Neugebaur thought the "bright star behind the Lion's foot" was a reference to beta-Virginis!! What does that reference say of line 14 and 18.

    I didn't know how to go searching for the specific ponit of reference for the VAT4956. Can you just copy the information for Lines 3, 8, 14 and 18 and post them here maybe? Thanks! Are they saying "yes, the MOON was there in Virgo on that day? for line 18?" Do they correct it?

    If they consider it "accurate" for Line 18, year 568BCE then the BSBLF (MUL KUR sa TIL GIR UR-A) assigned to beta-Virginis makes Sachs/Hunger Line 3 reference to the "Rear Foot of the Lion" (GIR ar sa UR-A) and "error" in assignment, that line should thus read "sigma-Leonis". Of course, sigma-Leonis, obviously the reason for calling that star the "rear foot of the Lion" is actually the rear foot of Leo, so there is no problem with identifying sigma-Leonis as the Rear Foot of the Lion when this is corrected.

    OR.....did they MISS this? I guess I should check it out to see for myself. But if you can give me a link to the VAT4956 info that would be great. Thanks!

    Thanks for this post.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi CF,

    Okay, I finally looked up the VAT4956 reference at this site. This site DOES NOT do any calculations. All they do (which is good) is posts the Sachs/Hunger outdated reference. A scan of the actual text. Thus you have Sachs/Hunger's "moon" reference in line 18 which is an ERROR.

    So this is nothing more than a great place to get the transliteration and the translation from Sachs/Hunger, which is not questioned.

    Thus here's your opportunity.

    GO TO LINE THREE and observe that what Sachs/Hunger calls the "Rear Foot of the Lion" (GIR ar sa UR-A) is different from what they call the "Bright star behind the Lion's Foot" in Lines 14 and 18! These are two different stars. The Moon was long gone out of Virgo by the 15th so the "moon" is not accurate but nor is it noted to be an error. If you remove the moon from there and look on that date, you should see Venus directly below beta-Virginis. If beta-Virginis is thus by the text identified as the "bright star behind the Lion's Foot" then the Lion's Foot (Rear Foot of the Lion) must be the star in front of it which is sigma-Leonis. Thus calling the RFL in Line 3 "beta-Virginis" is incorrect.

    Note that Sachs Hunger did not assign the stars vs transliteration evenly. That is, for Lines 3, 14 and 18 they could have said, beta-Virginis, eta-Virginis and eta-Virginis, which would have shown the difference. OR, they could have done both transliterations which is "Rear Foot of the Lion" and "Bright Star Behind the Lion's Foot"; again, you would have noticed two different stars. But instead, they mix it up so that only if you have the transliteration would you know the difference. Line 3 is given a star assignment but lines 14 and 18 the transliateration. Thus Line 3 is "beta-Virginis" and most casual researchers (i.e. Neugebaur) think that the BSBLF is also beta-Virginis! But they are two different star references! Venus below beta-Virginis on the 15th proves that the reference to the BSBLF is beta-Virginis and that the Rear Foot of the Lion must be sigma-Leonis, which is not what Sachs/Hunger is representing, nor correcting even with this reference you found. It remains on the books as an error and a deception.

    Aren't you even a least bit curious why two professors would "miss this"? Not just miss Venus being there but think the moon was still in Virgo and not note an "error" as they did in Line 3? And mixing star assignment with transliteration worked! Neugebaur never caught on that line 3 was not a beta-Virginis reference but a sigma-Leonis reference nor apparently was he corrected by Sachs/Hunger on this point. But WHY?

    Anyway, thanks for the reference. I thought it was something "new" and newly researched but it's just a "copy" of Sachs/Hunger's errors and misrepresentations.

    But at least you have your own program and you're checking this out for yourself.

    Thanks, though, for the reference. This is a great resource for the transliteration and translation.

    Finally, once Neugebaur understood that Line 14 and 18 were "beta-Virginis" they did note that Line 14 was an "error" for the day before as line 3 was an "error for th 8th" when the text said 9th. The error is the same when compared thus both lunar positions belong to the same lunar cycle. It does not match up to 511BCE specifically though, until you adjust line 8 to 4 cubits below beta-Geminorum which I found to be 13.5 hours too early or 10.5 hours to late since the moon adjusted to 4 cubits below beta-G when I was at the longitude of Hawaii. Discovering a text match for the moon 1 cubit before sigma-Leonis on the 9th of Nisan and 1 cubit in front of beta-Virginis (BSBLF) on the 5th of Sivan was by incidental discovery. So it sort of makes sense.

    I've got to look at my computer again. I don't have all my references otherwise this would be easier but somewhere I'm sure there is an explanation.

    Thanks, again for this reference. I'm glad I checked it out and can DISMISS it as nothing new. All they do is quote Sachs/Hunger's work, uncorrected.

    JC

  • Deleted
    Deleted

    I thought slide 27 of the Feat of Clay piece to be particularly interesting. In short, based on astronimical measurements there's a difference referred to in Sky Software of some 9 minutes back in 567 BCE. So much for the WTS stance that archeological information being inaccruate (in defence of 607 vs 587as the fall of Jerusalem). If measurements in the same era are off just 9 minutes, any claims to substantial inaccuracies (eg 20 years) is highly bogus.

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