Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

ellderwho

Undis,
But does God always get what He "wants"? Not according to His Holy Word: John Chapter 5 say that Jesus WANTED to save those Jews who were trying to kill Him, but they rejected Him (and so went to Hell).
How do you possibly get that from Chapter 5? 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Did Jesus get what He wanted there?
I think so. 5: 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Did Jesus get what He wanted there?
I think so. 5:38
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Undis, look at what Jesus is saying in the above quotes. First of all God quickens whom he pleases as does the Son v21. Does this mean in v24 that God raises the dead on the last day and "saves" them ? I believe it is in reference to the present; v25 ' the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear ' what happens when you hear ? YOU LIVE! Furthermore as believers, how do you suppose we get to a point when the "word" dwells in us?? v38 Niv. v37,38 And the Father who has sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice or seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. Why doesnt the word dwell in them??? Jesus goes on to say you search the scriptures. This simply stated, we dead in sin, can read all we want to about the savior and teachings and claim this and that, the bottom line is if his word does not dwell in you your DEAD! And no where in scripture is it taught that we can somehow invoke this action or complete it by a choice. Lazarus is a perfect example of this but you seemed to miss the point. Lazarus was dead,dead,dead! E
UnDisfellowshipped

Okay,
Let's take a look at John Chapter 5 (NKJV): John 5:16: For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 31 "If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
ellderwho

but I say these things that you may be saved.

You say lets look at John 5. And you highlight words that either imply will or chioce. Which is interesting because words like will and may describe our inability as sinners to do exactly what it is you believe we as sinners are capable of.

But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
None of us are willing. Even when drawn and saved as Paul was, I struggle just like Paul descibes my nature would have me do. Ro.7:14-24
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog said:
Where does it say: "that people are NOT saved or sealed until AFTER they... receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ?
Ephesians 1: 13-14: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. That Scripture shows that Christians are saved by: (1st) Hearing the Gospel (2nd) Believing and trusting in Jesus Christ (3rd) Being sealed by the Holy Spirit
In case you haven't noticed being sealed by the Holy Spirit is not the same as "receive the Holy Spirit into your hearts" So I ask you again, Where (in Ephesians chapter 1) does it say: "receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ? You skipped over another verse. You said:
" Jesus was talking about a literal resurrection from the dead in John Chapter 5."
Was Jesus talking about a literal resurrection in verse 24?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Next you say:
And once that "blind" person's has had his eyes opened by God, where does the Bible say that the person cannot choose to reject or accept Jesus at that point? In fact, the Bible, all the way through, teaches this, from Genesis through Revelation, as I have shown with dozens upon dozens of Verses in this Thread.
The only problem with this is, choosing to repent is a good work. Repenting and choosing to do good (or choosing God), are the first acts of obedience. And good works are predestined:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Also you said
But does God always get what He "wants"? Not according to His Holy Word: John Chapter 5 says that Jesus WANTED to save those Jews who were trying to kill Him, but they rejected Him (and so went to Hell). Did Jesus get what He wanted there?
You are reading (in this case writing) into the text, just as you did here;
Matthew Chapter 23 says that Jesus WANTED to save Jerusalem, but that they were not willing to be saved. Did Jesus get what He wanted there?
The text doesn't say anything about saving every Jew in Jerusalem, but you read it into the text. You go on to list a total of 5 things or areas in which you believe God is powerless, and you seem to take pleasure in them.
2nd Peter 3:9 and 1st Timothy Chapter 2 (and many other Verses) say that God DESIRES all men to be saved, but obviously not all men are saved.
Does God get what He desires when not all men are saved? The Scriptures say that it is the will of God that ALL Christians live holy and sanctified lives, but not all Christians do live holy and sanctified lives. Does God get what He wants when not all Christians live holy and sanctified lives? The Bible says that God does NOT WANT any Christian to ever commit fornication, and that it is His will that Christians abstain from fornication, but obviously some Born Again people do commit this sin (such as King David, etc.) Does God get what He wants when a Christian commits a sin such as fornication?
You seem happy that there are things that God just can't control. You may think (in your own mind) that you are winning some points in this discussion. OK Look at the prize you've won, a frustrated, powerless God. My God is not powerless were sin and mans' will is concerned, He is all powerful! The God of the bible is able to use the sin of man to accomplish His works for His Glory! He makes all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Certainly God wanted men to murder His Son, He predetermined it beforehand to be done.
Acts 4:27
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Not only did God get what He wanted, it pleased Him!
Look at Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his
seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
D Dog
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped You said:
If the "predestination doctrine" was true (obviously Paul would have known about it), then Paul would have known that God did NOT predestine ALL Israel to be saved, in that case, Paul would have been actually PRAYING AGAINST GOD'S WILL!
Not only did Paul know about the Sovereign grace of God, he taught it in the many passages that we have examined on this thread. I believe Paul was "actually P RAYING AGAINST GOD'S WILL!". Haven't you ever done that? Has there ever been someone you wanted to see God save, and that person die without Christ? I have. In Romans 9 he practically says as much, he even wishes that he could trade his salvation for theirs in verse 3. He goes on to show that not every Jew is part of Israel, look at verse 6

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Next you ask:
Then how or why in the world would a Christian's conduct and actions toward an unsaved person cause that person to be saved or to be stumbled away to Hell?
How could someone be stumbled away from Christ by another person's actions, IF that person had been predestined to be saved?
Do you really think that someone else's salvation is dependant on you?
How can man destroy the works of God? How can man destroy a person for whom Christ died?
You tell me, because from where I sit, it looks like you're trying to do just that!
2nd Timothy 2:24-26: And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Do I understand you to think that I have been taken captive by the devil?
D Dog
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog,
I was absolutely NOT trying to say that you were taken captive by Satan. Definitely not.
2nd Timothy 2:24-26: And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
I posted that Scripture to show what Paul was saying about salvation, and about how a Christian's attitude should be toward the unsaved sinners.
Paul said that God MAY, PERHAPS, grant ALL the people you come into contact with, repentance, and enlighten them with the truth.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
Lazarus is a perfect example of this but you seemed to miss the point. Lazarus was dead,dead,dead!
Could you please explain that a little better?
Lazarus had physically died. His spirit was then separated from his dead body, and went to rest in the Paradise of Hades ("The Bosom of Abraham").
Jesus physically resurrected Lazarus by re-uniting his spirit with his body.
From what I read in the Scriptures, Lazarus, while alive, was already a believer in Christ:
John 11: 3: Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, "Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick."
John 11:11: These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." Lazarus is called "he whom [Jesus] loved" and Jesus called him "our friend". John 11: 35-36: Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, "See how He loved him!" I think it is pretty obvious that Lazarus had been Born Again and saved while he was living. When Lazarus was Born Again, that is when he made his decision to be resurrected (in other words, he put his faith in the resurrection power of Jesus Christ). So, really, I do not even see what point you are claiming to try and make. Let's say you are correct about John Chapter 5, and Jesus was speaking about being spiritually dead in th following Verses: John 5: 21: For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. I still don't see how that in any way contradicts my beliefs about salvation.
UnDisfellowshipped

I am not going to be stupid enough to say that all my beliefs are 100% correct. I have made mistakes and errors in the past, and I will do so in the future.
I will say that I do not like one bit the following of man-made creeds and doctrines and teachings.
For example:
1st Corinthians 1:10-13: Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
A person could say this now-a-days:
Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Calvin," or "I am of Luther," or "I am of Billy Graham," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Calvin crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Calvin?
Jesus is the One, and Only One, who was crucified for you and for me, not Paul, not Apollos, not Peter, not Calvin, not Luther, not Billy Graham, not the Pope.
Jesus has magnified His Word above His Name:
Psalm 138: 2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your Name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your Name.
Jesus Christ's Holy Word is my ONLY source for the TRUTH. I stand by Jesus, I look to Jesus, I trust in Jesus, NOT in creeds, confessions, or doctrines of men.
I delight in TRUTH. I delight in Christ's Word. I delight most of all in Christ Himself.
If the Bible taught the "Predestination Doctrine", I would believe it and I would preach it.
Do I take delight in a "weak and powerless god", as you claim?
Why do you make Jesus out to be weak and powerless when He chooses to allow humans to have the freedom to accept or reject His free gift?
Jesus has the power to end all suffering, sin, and death, but He chooses not to. Why? For His own purpose.
In the same way, Jesus has the power to cause or force every person to be saved, but He chooses not to. Why? For His own purpose.
My God brought the Universe, and the Heavens, and the millions of angels and billions of stars into existence by His Word.
My God willingly suffered and was tortured and died for me, when He could have just as easily annihilated His enemies with but a thought.
My God created and brought a storm onto His boat, just so He could calm it by saying "Hush! Be Quiet!"
My God walked on water.
Demons are so afraid of my God that they are terrified just at the mention of His Glorious and Holy Name.
I am nothing. Jesus is all things in all. Jesus is everything.
Jesus has given us His Holy Word -- I believe in His Infallible, Inspired Word.
I will stand by His Holy Word for eternity. I will not be tossed about by various teachings.
Jesus Christ lives in me and I in Him -- The Holy Spirit is my Teacher.
The Holy Word of my God teaches that:
* Jesus Christ died for all men -- every human ever (Isaiah 53:6; 1st Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; 2nd Peter 2:1; John 3:16-18; 1st John 2:1-2; 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15; John 1:29; John 11:50; John 12:32; Romans 3:21-26)
* God desires that all men be saved, He does not want anyone to be destroyed (Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 33:11; Romans 2:4; Revelation 2:21; 1st Timothy 2:3-4; 2nd Peter 3:9; Titus 2:11; Isaiah 45:22; Isaiah 55:1; Lamentations 3:33; Ezekiel 18:30; and many, many more)
ellderwho

I think it is pretty obvious that Lazarus had been Born Again and saved while he was living.
Okay lets go with that.
Could Lazarus make the choice to be brought back to life in this world?. And then die again. Either way Lazarus is present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8 in death or life.
Christ re-unites Lazarus' spirit with his body Lazarus has no choice in this action.
Jo.5:21 Jesus gives life to whom he wills, not who wills it.
Was Lazarus raised in a "glorified body"? No so this cannot be a physical reference of the ressurection to come. Jesus wept for the living not the dead.
As Christ' ressurection he left the grave clothes behind, where Lazarus wears them out.
My point is how could Lazarus choose to be spiritually ressurected. With Jo. 5:21 in that the ressurection spoken of is spiritual it has to be with 5:24 making the point.
A physically dead person can not hear.
A spiritually dead person can not hear either! (Gods word that is)
5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5: 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Notice in the above, the fact that you can hear Gods word is the sign a person has already passed from death, to life. "Hath" is the key word. E.
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
In case you haven't noticed being sealed by the Holy Spirit is not the same as "receive the Holy Spirit into your hearts" So I ask you again, Where (in Ephesians chapter 1) does it say: "receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ?
I will let the Scriptures answer you. The Scriptures state that the "sealing" of the Spirit is indeed the same as The Spirit coming into your heart: 2nd Corinthians 1:22: who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Deputy Dog said:
choosing to repent is a good work. Repenting and choosing to do good (or choosing God), are the first acts of obedience. And good works are predestined:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is what I believe: God has predestined or ordained or appointed the "good works" that Christians should do, and they are: * Preach the Gospel
* Love others as Christ loves them
* Humbly serving others
* Do unto others as you would have done to you
* Give gifts of mercy
* Live a holy and sanctified life that gives glory and honor to Jesus (which not all Christians do) God has not predestined what each individual Christian will do in his life.

Freedom to Choose God

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