How far has America come?

by Mulan 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Tina
    Tina

    Hi Kent!!
    Yes,it is disgusting that fundies push their beliefs and practices on others.
    (I didnt vote for Bush btw lol)
    The case that struck that prayer in school down was initiated by anonymous catholics and mormons who besides nontheists found this quite offensive.
    Justice John Paul Stevens in the majority opinion wrote that this was impermissible. And that "it sent a message that outsiders(to fundyism) were not full members of the political community and that the 'adherents'(insiders) were favored". So no prayer.

    The only thing prayer in school would accomplish is hatred directed at those students of different denominations or no religion period.
    It is horrifying to see the religious rights power and lobbying going on. It's truly a step back for americans,if they would look critically at the issue. Just some thoughts.hugs,Tina

  • rutht
    rutht

    Mulan,

    I understand what you are saying. We have become a nation of victims. The courts seem to bend over backwards to protect the rights of a few while the rights of the majority are ignored. Kent said that Christianity is a minority religion and that is true worldwide, but in that stadium at that time I am sure it was not. I am not saying this as a right-winged conservative as I am a registered Democrat who whole-heartedly supported Gore in the last election, but I am concerned as this principal evidently was, with groups like the aclu protecting the rights of a few to the detriment of the majority. Whose rights are we really talking about here? The rights of those that do not want to hear a prayer or the rights of those that do.

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    I don't agree with prayer in school. I think hey if you want to pray to God there's plenty of time outside of school to do, or do it and don't make a fedral case out of it(no pun intended). I also don't agree with praying for sports teams HAHAHA sorry wingnut!!!

    But I think there are some valid points in it. We spend so much time now worry about what everyone thinks or feels because people are so darn touchey anymore. I think you should be able to Pray or not to pray, and not have to worry about getting in trouble either way.

    Ven

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    There is a time and a place for everything, and the principal got it all wrong.

    It would be wrong to push homosexuality at a football game, right? It would be wrong to make abortion announcements at at football game, right? So why would it be right to push Christianity at a football game?

    Christians loves to cry, "Persecution!" every time they don't get their way. Rubbish! They are not being persecuted in this country. Instead, every time they try to push their beliefs on others, the country says, "Uh, no, we have freedom of worship in this country, which includes both freedom to worship as you please AS WELL AS freedom not to worship anyone or anything." Then the Christians run around screaming, "Persecution!" So silly.

    Christians can pray all they want, whenever they want, however they want. Nobody is going to stop them. It's when they want to force others to listen to their form of worship that they step over the line.

    This is NOT a Christian country, never was, never will be. It's not for any one religion. We are a melting-pot country, with all sorts of beliefs. As long as Christians show this level of intolerance toward others, others will complain. Then the Christians can cry about persecution again while everyone else just shakes their heads in weariness.

  • crossroads
    crossroads

    Not nearly far enough.
    Conservative---For Death Penalty-Against Abortion
    +++++++++++++++DEATH+++++++++LIFE++++++
    Liberal------Against Death Penalty----For Abortion
    +++++++++++++++LIFE+++++++++++DEATH++++
    Supreme Court--For Death Penalty--For Abortion
    +++++++++++++++Death+++++++++Death++++++
    Outcast-----Against Death Penalty+++Against Abortion
    ++++++++++++Life++++++++++++++++++Life+++++
    Let us Pray--There are not many Lincolns, Churchhills Ganhdis or RFK'S born into each generation hopefully
    we haven't killed OURS.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    "I concede that maybe it didn't happen"

    So it's propoganda. Ah, that would make it okay. NOT.

    The mythic principle basically said homosexuals were carrying out a 'sexual perversion'.

    He also ignored the fact that the USA has pathetic levels of teen pregnancy due to poor sex education (in the Netherlands sex education is early and comprehensive; they have a higher average age of fist sexual experience and a fraction of the number of teen mothers) and described attempting to educate kids to have safe sex as condoming (heheh) sexual promiscuity.

    He then, having decried condoms, becomes a big fat hypocrite by describing abortion as a 'viable means of birth control', which no pro-choicer would ever do. Unlike the 'simple minded and ignorant' people who are against sex education and birth control, most reasonable pro-choicers are for both, and see abortion only as a last resort.

    He then goes on to lie and fabricate; the Supreme Court is not against Christian worship in schools, it is against worship in schools, so anything that did 'religiously worship and praise the goddess, mother earth' in any demonstrable fashion would also be against the law.

    He assumed everyone was straight, anti-choice, Christian, and easily lead.

    If I was a parent I would want his head, as bigots like that breed bigots like that.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Very good. I like your reasoning.

    But I don't think the Netherlands has quite got it right yet, either. I think an earlier age for first sexual experience is nothing to brag about.

    Your other points are really good.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    While I appreciate that some people have a need to worship, that need must
    be balanced against the needs of people who have no such need or who want
    to worship in another way. That is precisely the purpose of the First
    Amendment of the American Constitution, of which I quote the relevant parts:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
    prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    It is clear that the High School principal who made that speech (assuming
    that this really happened) does not understand the principles embodied in
    the Constitution or the derived principles found in American case law.

    The amendment has two parts. The first part is often misunderstood. All it
    really says is that Congress is not allowed to establish a state-sponsored
    religion. An "establishment of religion" is a state church, and if Congress
    is not allowed to make a law respecting a state church, then it cannot
    establish one. That's all there is to it. Case law is a different story.
    Case law, especially beginning in the 1940s, extended that simple idea to
    the notion of "separation of church and state". Case law established the
    principle that church and religious things must be separate from political
    things, and that government must keep its hands off religion. That is not
    what the Amendment said, but case law has extended the constitution in
    many directions not envisioned by the founding fathers.

    The second part is easy to understand in principle, but hard to put into
    practice. The free exercise of religion obviously has limits. No one in his
    right mind would advocate allowing a religion to operate whose basic
    teachings involved child sacrifice or free sex with children. Obviously,
    other laws kick in when First Amendment rights encroach upon other rights.
    The problem is in determining objectively and consistently where that
    boundary should be drawn.

    The clause "free exercise of religion" clearly includes the freedom both to
    actively worship as one pleases (within limits) and to refrain from worshiping
    as one pleases. That immediately raises the question of determining where one
    person's right to worship or not worship encroaches upon the complementary
    right of another.

    In any government-sponsored activity, government is required by law not to
    favor or disfavor any religion. The only reasonable way to do this is simply
    for government to avoid getting involved in sponsoring any religious activities
    and avoid making unnecessary prohibitions on such. Because schools are run by
    the government, they must comply with this rule. That necessarily must include
    avoiding sponsoring prayer to any supernatural entities. It does not matter
    whether such entity is the Christian God, or the Muslim Allah, or the
    Egyptian Osiris, or the Hindu Vishnu: prayer is a religious activity and
    American government is prohibited by the Constitution from sponsoring it.
    By the same token, government is not allowed to prohibit prayer to such
    entities. It would be a violation of the constitution for government to make
    a law prohibiting private prayer at government-sponsored events, except
    where such exercise of religious freedom encroaches upon the rights of others.

    On the other hand, government is not prohibited from sponsoring all sorts
    of other activities. Government can sponsor anything at all that is not
    specifically prohibited in the Constitution or in case law.

    Now let's take a look at how the Roane High School principal wants to
    violate the First Amendment, and uses specious arguments:

    "It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football
    games to say a prayer and play the National Anthem to honor God and Country."

    Custom has no bearing on the question of government-sponsored religious
    activities.

    "Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer
    is a violation of Federal Case Law."

    Not quite correct. It would be a violation for a government-sponsored school
    official to preside over a ceremony of prayer to Osiris, Vishnu, Allah or
    Yahweh. It would not be a violation to 'say a prayer' privately.

    This is a good example of the straw man argument, where the arguer
    misrepresents the issue at hand and argues against the misrepresentation,
    leaving the audience with the impression that the real issue has been
    dealt with.

    The principal next uses the straw man technique to misrepresent what school
    facilities can be used for. In most states, elementary school and state-run
    college facilities are often used for religious activities as well as all
    sort of other things. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses have held many
    district conventions at the Gill Coliseum stadium of Oregon State University.
    Here in Fort Collins, Colorado, various facilities of Colorado State
    University are heavily used for religious activities.

    The point is not what facilities are used for, but who is sponsoring the use
    and for what purpose. It would be a violation of the First Amendment for
    Colorado State University to sponsor a religious convention but
    certainly not for it to allow such a convention in its facilities.

    "As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to
    approve of sexual perversion and call it an alternate lifestyle, and if
    someone is offended, that's OK."

    This is an outrageous misrepresentation of the law. Someone could certainly
    use the facility "to approve of sexual perversion" if they properly rented
    it and so forth. Someone could certainly use the facility for prayer
    meetings if they properly rented it. What they can not do is use those
    facilities during a school sponsored football game to advance some
    political or religious or any other agenda.

    This principal is actually misusing her position to advance a particular
    religious view, and probably grossly violated the law. Referring to
    homosexuality as "sexual perversion" is purely a religious view of certain
    Christian sects. She used the government-sponsored facility, and her own
    position as a government official, to advance her religious agenda and
    thereby to violate the religious or moral precepts of others who do not
    share her religious views.

    This kind of gross hypocrisy, this total inability to see the world from a
    viewpoint other than their narrow, bigoted viewpoint, is characteristic of
    the Fundamentalists who run the "religious right" in the U.S. They are
    precisely the type of people that the First Amendment was written to protect
    everyone else against.

    "I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity by dispensing condoms and
    calling it safe sex."

    Yet another attempt to advance the agenda of Fundamentalism. Who says that
    Fundamentalist views of morality ought to dictate what everyone else does?
    Government must take a neutral view with regard to all forms of religious
    morality and must subscribe to a common denominator of secular morality.

    "If someone is offended, that's OK. I can even use this public facility to
    present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a viable means of birth
    control. If someone is offended, no problem."

    Yet another shot at using her government-sponsored position to violate the
    First Amendment by advancing a religious agenda. If she wants to use the
    facility to do so, she can personally sponsor a religious convention. She
    is not allowed to advance religious agendas at a football game.

    "I can designate a school day as earth day and involve students in
    activities to religiously worship and praise the goddess, mother earth, and
    call it ecology."

    If someone uses a football game to advance such a religious agenda, then
    that would be a violation of law. But this is really just another attempt
    by this woman to promote her religious views. It's about on a par with
    similar attempts by Fundamentalists to class the teaching of evolution and
    related subjects as "religion".

    "I can use literature, videos and presentations in the
    classroom that depict people with strong, traditional Christian convictions
    as simple minded and ignorant and call it enlightenment."

    If that's what someone really did, then that would be wrong. But I suspect
    that the woman is complaining about an unvarnished presentation of Fundy
    views on various topics. Just as with JWs, when such views are stripped of
    their candy coatings, the basic views are obviously ignorant, and only
    simple-minded people will still accept them. Fundies like this woman and
    JWs just hate unvarnished presentations of their views.

    "However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God and ask Him to bless
    this event with safety and good sportsmanship, Federal Case Law is violated."

    Precisely. That's because doing so is forcing others to quietly accede to
    the Christian Fundamentalist viewpoint. Why not ask Vishnu, Osiris and
    Allah to bless the event?

    "This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical."

    Only from the narrow Fundamentalist viewpoint.

    "Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone except God
    and His Commandments."

    Another straw man. The point is that no religious viewpoints ought
    to be promoted by school officials at government-sponsored functions such
    as football games. The woman is mixing up government-sponsored use of the
    facilities with privately sponsored uses.

    "Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students
    to abide by rules, which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do
    otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical."

    Enter the martyr. And the gross hypocrite.

    "I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not
    need to add an intentional transgression."

    Again the martyr. This woman is some piece of work!

    "For this reason, I shall, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's,"
    and refrain from praying at this time."

    It is good for a school principal to advocate obeying the Constitution.
    We also note once again the false claim that prayer is prohibited. What
    is prohibited is not prayer, but for a school official to lead a secular
    audience in prayer to any supernatural entity.

    "However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God, and ask
    Him in the name of Jesus to bless this event, please feel free to do so."

    Typical of Fundy hypocrites, the woman works right around the spirit of
    the Constitution.

    "As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."

    Now she's martyring all of Christianity. Pathetic.

    "One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with
    one another, and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in
    the team huddles. They prayed at the concession stand. And they prayed in
    the announcer's box."

    What else is to be expected in America's Bible Belt?

    But let some other school official get up there and encourage the audience
    to pray to Osiris, and what do you think would happen? That same principal
    would almost certainly have the official arrested for violating the law.
    Fundamentalist hypocrisy at its finest.

    "The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United
    States of America - the seat of "justice" in the one nation under God."

    It is clearly recognized by U.S. courts that prayer of any sort to some god
    or gods by government officials in discharging their duties is an implicit
    "establishment of religion" by the government, and therefore is prohibited
    by the Constitution. Let the Supreme Court pray to Osiris one day and you'd
    see how fast Fundies would want to stomp on "religious freedom"!

    "Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee remembered what so many have forgotten..we are
    given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion."

    Absolutely wrong. The constitution clearly restricts the exercise of religious
    freedom whenever such excercise would encroach upon anyone else's exercise of
    religious freedom -- even if such freedom includes the right to be free of
    social pressure to be seen praying in public.

    "Praise God that His remnant remains!"

    Starting to sound like Fred Franz now.

    "Celebrate Jesus in 2001! Jesus said, "If you are ashamed of me, I will be
    ashamed of you before my Father."

    All well and good, but don't do it on school time.

    AlanF

  • Kent
    Kent

    Hi Mulan

    I didn't vote for Bush either. I still can't believe he is the President.

    Well, that made me scratch my head a while, and when I found this statement as well: I would love to have the faith that others have, but I haven't gotten it back........YET!! - I finally got it.

    YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM - NOT ME!!! LOL

    ROTFL

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    "The only difference between God and Adolf Hitler is that God is more proficient at genocide."

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    **YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM - NOT ME!!! LOL**

    Pheeeeww I bet that was a relif for ya

    Ven

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