Introduction

by Kathy 14 Replies latest jw friends

Kathy

Hello! I hope you'll indulge me for a few minutes here. I've been reading this board with great enthusiasm for a few weeks now. I must say I am so impressed by the depth and breadth of experiences all of you are sharing. What an amazing group of people you are. What also strikes me is that there are so many websites like this devoted to helping Jehovah's Witnesses recover. I'm sooooo thankful I don't need to recover from my religious upbringing. We went to a simple protestant church that essentially taught us to "love our neighbor." Some people would say this was pretty bogus, but that's all right. I like to keep things simple…. God=love. That's it. I don't think I'll ever need help getting over that. I have enough other problems, as most of us do.
Earlier I asked you for advice regarding my boyfriend's sister who's attending a bible study with their Jehovah's Witness cousin. I appreciated all of your responses. Incidentally, I originally posted under the name Kitty… I'm not sure why I did that, except I was thinking I shouldn't post my real name publicly. Now, I guess I'm not going to worry and I'm not going to feel ashamed if I get "caught" trying to HELP this person! We are all in our late 30's, mid 40's… basic people with decent careers. The sister has an education degree but is currently a "stay at home mom" with two little boys, and a marriage that's a bit shaky. We believe she's reaching out for some meaning in her life.
I log in here every day, and every day I read something that I'm absolutely positive if I share it with this woman that she'll "see the light" about this organization. My boyfriend and I are becoming more and more disheartened…. She's been studying for about three months now, and despite the reams of paper we've given her, she seems to have a closed mind already.
The big hang-up for her is the Trinity. She says she can't see any good support for the belief anywhere in the bible. The problem is, for her it appears that: NO TRINITY=BELIEVE ALL JW TEACHINGS. We are diligently looking up bible verses to support the trinity, only because it seems that if she believes that, she'll give up the idea that JW's have "the truth." But actually, I think the more compelling evidence against the teachings is the role of men within the organization, and the Watchtower and Awake publications. If we want to be believers, why do we need those publications? It's so obvious to me….
We're trying to point out the ridiculousness of the "society" to her. So recently I asked the question, "How were the anointed chosen, and how did they know they were "anointed?" I have a feeling the answer should cause any person with a normal mind to have some doubts about this org.
Thanks for allowing me to introduce myself, and I hope you don't mind if I continue to ask some questions in an effort to help this woman who appears to really need it! It's coming down to the wire, and we are hoping to get through to her before she, god forbid, gets baptized! Aaarrrggggg!
Mulan

Hi Kathy, I will advise you to give up on the Trinity issue. It is rarely, if ever, successful to convince a person either way, on that subject. If you believe it, you won't be convinced it isn't a Bible truth, and vice versa. Just for the record, I am no longer a JW, but I do not believe in the Trinity. I just think it is unimportant. I believe that God is God, Jesus is his son, and the holy spirit is something of another nature entirely. Jesus is/was more than a man, for sure, and I believe the Bible teaches that he was a God. But the Trinity doctrine is steeped in Catholicism, and cannot be clearly found in the Bible. But, just like JW's, you can make a case for it, by finding various scriptures out of context, but even those are more supportive of a duality, not a Trinity, because they rarely mention the holy spirit. Just my 2 cents worth, to quote another poster.
As I said, I also don't think it's important.
A person who is studying with JW's is taught early on, that there will be people, like you, who will try to dissuade them with clever words, and misrepresenting the 'real truth'. In other words, to her, you are a liar. The best thing to do, I think, is to let her know you are there for her if and when she learns the truth of things. I have found that you can't force feed them anything. I have tried for six years with my mother, to no avail. Some will see it and some won't.
bonnie38

Kathy,
I would give up trying to prove the trinity. There is just not any support for it in the Bible. Is there any chance that this girl you are trying to help would come on this site? I would strongly recommend the book, Crisis of Conscience, by Raymond Franz. She may not read it herself because it is considered "apostate" literature by JWs. But if you have not yet read it, you will find a wealth of information that could poosibly help you.
Michelle
rutht

Dear Kathy,
I am afraid you will not find much support for the Trinity on this forum. You might want to try a different web site if you want arguments for the Trinity. I personally believe the Bible teaches it, but I agree with Mulan and Bonnie that it would not be the best topic to use in your desire to help your friend's sister. I have never been a jw, but my husband was and his mother still is. I have had many discussions with both of them about the Trinity, and they just do not get it. Even though my husband knows the WTS is wrong, he still sometimes defends their doctrines and has a very skeptical view of all religions, which I believe comes from his WTS indoctrination.
Even though I do not agree with their doctrines, my biggest problem with the WTS is the overall tone of their words. Have you ever just sat down and read a Watchtower with her? I would ask her if she really believes that kind of LOVE is the same kind of LOVE that Jesus preached. Does she really believe that Jesus would condone that kind of conditional LOVE? I would remind her that Jesus said that he wanted mercy not sacrifice and ask her which one the WTS is asking her to give.
Good Luck,
Rutht
WildHorses

Hey rutht, One thing that I like about the trinity issue is that our slavation does not depend on our belief or dis belief of it.
I have read sscriptures that both prove and disprove the trinity, but I have not come to any conclusion as to which I believe. Personally I have always had a problem with trinity. I could never understand how, if Jesus was part of a trinity, why he would pray to himself.
Kathy, I wish you all the best with convincing you friends sister.
Shari
rutht

Dear Lilacs,
(I love your name, btw. Is there anything better than the smell of lilacs in early May?) Anyway, even though I personally believe in the Trinity, I do not think it is a prerequisite for salvation either. I really don't think God is too concerned about what we think his nature is as long as we strive to do our best and give our fellow human beings help and compassion when it is needed and even sometimes when it is not.
Rutht
randawg

kathy
being raised a jw till 16yrs old 20years ago Ive just recently accepted Christ as my savior, personally I believe in a truine concept of God. From reading and researching scripture,Matt 1:23, Mark 1: 10,11 - Acts 1:4,5 -Romans 5:5,6 John 1:1-4,9,10 Im new to this forum, its interesting I agree with the others here you wont get much support for the trinity. The trinity is a small issue when you look at the whole jw doctrine, or start with asking who translated there Bible, false prophecies,and why they cant continue to use there own bible really if this person just investigates a little into the WBTS(Bible makes no mention of it) they should recongnize, beware of a organization that cant be questioned and has all the answers
RedhorseWoman

Hi Kathy, welcome to the board. The Trinity is a sticky subject, as others have suggested. As Mulan mentioned, the only real "proof" of anything would be a duality--not a trinity.
So many times, people accept the JW doctrine of no trinity, and then hang everything else on this one doctrine. Even if inconsistencies and fallacies are pointed out to them, they accept the JW line that these other things are unimportant and that "Jehovah will straighten things out in His own due time". So often, a newbie who is studying is just so entranced by finding a religion that can explain away the trinity so convincingly that they will accept anything else that is taught without even questioning it. After all, if they can disprove the trinity, they MUST be right.
The mind control is subtle and effective, and very difficult to counter--especially in someone new who has probably never done anything more with a Bible than to record family birthdays. They are also taught very early on that Satan will try to keep them in the "world" and that he will try to undermine their faith. I'm sure that that is how your helping is perceived--you are, in her eyes, being used as an agent of Satan to work toward her losing the "truth".
I think that your pointing out various flaws is a good thing, even though initially it might make her "faith" even stronger, since she will "see" how you are "persecuting" the "servants of the true God". Perhaps, however, something might take root and cause some minor doubts, even if she doesn't acknowledge them right away. The main thing is to keep the lines of communication open.
esther

Hello Kathy, welcome. From the comments already made, you probably realise that the subject of the trinity is open to disagreement. One thing that bible students are taught early in the study is that it is people who care about them who will try to stop them from studying with JWs. Then they are told that the only way to help their loved ones is to stick with it, and help their loved ones to get everlasting life. The Watchtower Society is very good at playing on emotions.
One thing you might try, though, is the site of ajwrb (Associated Jehovah's Witness for the Reform of Blood). It was set up by concerned Jehovh's Witnesses, including elders. This may help, because it shows how the Society has changed its views on blood. These are links to the site
> http://www.ajwrb.org/index.shtml
> http://www.ajwrb.org/bible/index.shtml
Good luck and please keep us informed about your progress
esther
Farkel

: The big hang-up for her is the Trinity. She says she can't see any good support for the belief anywhere in the bible. The problem is, for her it appears that: NO TRINITY=BELIEVE ALL JW TEACHINGS.
Dubs pick issues to emphasize like the trinity simply because they are in fact, non-issues. They don't matter. No one ever got hurt, had their lives ruined, or died because they did or didn't believe the trinity. (Religious crusades notwithstanding. People get killed in religious crusades for all sorts of stupid reasons, but I'm talking about a belief as a practical matter.)
The same is true with hellfire/no hellfire. Those are simply matters of interpretation and don't affect our lives on earth.
In light of that ask your sister how many lives were ruined or destroyed over believing in the trinity? Then ask her how many lives were ruined or destroyed for believing God will remove the hope of eternal salvation from you if you take: 1) vaccinations, 2) organ transplants, 3) any blood components whatsoever, 4) refuse alternative military service. Tens of thousands or more people died needlessly from that crap because they believed it was "God's will." Then abruptly, the Watchtower Doctrine-Making-Up and Printing Enterprise changed "God's will" and said it was "God's will" that is was now ok.
How many people died needlessly because they couldn't eat meat on Friday? How many people died needlessly because they refused blood transfusion components that are now permissible?
The trinity doesn't mean jack. It's merely a smoke-screen the WTS puts up to deflect the REAL damage they've done to people in their false prophets career.
Farkel

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