Hi Folks, I feel vulnerable having the big guns trained on me, and remember my thoughts are in a state of flux, but, not having read the book yet, I feel that 1914 could be right. It has to be sometime in history. As does Armagedon. Generation, I don't think about it much, but on balance I think I prefer the old version. (we all know why they changed it) The faithful and disceet slave must be out there somewhere, are they the governing body? The more I learn about them the less I believe it, maybe it's all of the Anointed. 144000 are special possesion, kings and priests, bought from the earth. If all are part of this group, who do they rule over, to whom do the apply their priestly activities, and where do all of the faithful ones who died before Christ fit in?
OlderTom, I am in the process of reading the book, and I agree that the Mexico/Malawi is unbelievable. When the time is right, at the appropriate moment, in the fullness of time, I'll ask a selected elder and see what reaction I get!! Maybe the same one that I asked why the society playing the stock exchange wasn't gambling. Got to go now, Bye, YT.
I getting bored with this Board
by OlderTom 37 Replies latest jw friends
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YoungerTom
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Mommie Dark
Younger Tom said, ". If you want to woo people away you have to put something concrete in its place"
NONSENSE!!! Why do we have to replace your faulty salvation package for you? If you are a Bible believer, ponder this: Jesus said the road to salvation is cramped and narrow, and guess what? On a cramped narrow path YOU WALK SINGLE FILE. As in ALL BY YOURSELF. As in, slvation is something you work out AS AN INDIVIDUAL. It's between you and your personal notion of your god.
This cowardly refusal to find the path for yourself is a hallmark of Jaydub non-thinking. There IS no 'cencrete' when it comes to religion. That is just another Watchtower lie...
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Prisca
Younger Tom
I'm glad to see you here on the board again. It takes courage for an active JW to come here and admit his religion is in error.
You said :
If you no longer believe the JW's doctrines, what conclusions have you come to. If you want to woo people away you have to put something concrete in its place.
As you continue in your spiritual journey, YT, you will discover just what you believe and don't believe in. It doesn't happen overnight, and there are no right or wrong answers. Not that I know of anyway! I left 2 years ago, and I am still coming to conclusions. I am learning all the time, and I am enjoying it! You will gradually become more confident in yourself and what you believe. For decades, we were TOLD what to believe. Now, you have the choice to choose. Learn and study and pray. Ask God to help you in your search, and you will find the real "truth".
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ozziepost
Younger Tom, Glad you popped in. I hope you make a habit of it, old son.
Let's run through the points again:
1914 You'll need to do the reading on this one. The knowledge is there. You just need to take time out from the TV!
Armageddon Yes, it has to be sometime. All Christians are in expectation of the second coming, just as Jesus instructed.
Generation I suggest you prefer the old version, i.e. a literal period of a generation, because it's what Jesus intended when he spoke of the generation that would see the destruction of Jerusalem. It's as simple as that. It's the Borg which has complicated it by attaching it to a period which they call the "time of the end".
Faithful & Discreet Slave You say "the Faithful & Discreet Slave must be out there somewhere". Yep, it must, or rather they must. Read the passage in its context and you see that Jesus is talking about the qualities of Christians, not a prophetic "class". If you accept the Watchtower interpretation, it would mean this is Jesus' ONLY prophetic parable. Keep doing the reading!
This brings us to the last point you raise, and I'm sure this is the hardest for you to adjust your viewpoint on, and that is this one:
ruling as kings and priests We've talked about this before, so let's consider two scripture texts this time. Firstly, Romans 5:17"For if by the trespass of the one [man] death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one [person] Jesus Christ." The second text is found at Revelation 5:10 "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." I have emphasized the word "over" because other translations render this "on". Please check the Kingdom Interlinear to see the Greek word from which this has been translated. Notice it reads "upon". What does that tell you? Why did the NWT translators change this word which is "upon" in the oldest manuscripts to "over" ? Do you think it could be that they were influenced by their pre-conceived notions and beliefs? The truth of God's Word from these texts is that Christians, having been "born again", having Jesus in their heart, are even now reigning, before their death. This was used by Jesus to emphasize the superiority of being a spiritual Israelite over being of the flesh an Israelite. That's what it was about. You will see from Exodus 19:6 "you will be for me a kingdom of priests" that a whole nation had a priestly role. In this context also, spiritual Israel.
I'm really interested in your plan
When the time is right, at the appropriate moment, in the fullness of time, I'll ask a selected elder and see what reaction I get!! Maybe the same one that I asked why the society playing the stock exchange wasn't gambling.
Just who do you have in mind? Surely not Old Tom ? Just who could it be? Do tell ! Can't wait ! Can I come too?Cheers,
Ozzie"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos -
OlderTom
Hi YoungerTom, good to see you getting involved in the discussion.
You said
When the time is right, at the appropriate moment, in the fullness of time, I'll ask a selected elder and see what reaction I get!!
Whom would you select? I don't trust any of them. Every single one I thought I could trust has betrayed me for the sake of the organisation.
I can tell you now what the reaction will be and I think you do too. I hope if you do ask the forbidden question you will be prepared for the reaction. Let me see if I can guess right.
1st you will be told you don't understand.
Then he will try and readjust your thinking.
Then he will continue to hammer at you with the same old Watchtower lingo and tried and proven Watchtower expression until you give in.
The bible will remain firmly in his bag but many quotes will come from Watchtower publications.
If you do not give in you will be labled as a troublemake, spiritually weak and shunned.
BTW are you aware of the many deliberate mistakes in the Watchtower bible?
Do you know why these deliberate mistakes have been made?
Do you know what they are trying to hide with these deliberate mistranslations?
The Interliniar is a fantastic book for finding some of these mistranslations because you can compare the left side with the right side. I showed this to a JDub relative of mine, Up popped the apostate filter and from there on it was like talking to a pot plant.
I am glad though that you are open and a thinker. Open to evaluating information. Willing to examine what you have learned which is a definate no no once you are babtised. If it really is THE TRUTH it will stand up to vigarous examination.
I think many find it to hard and time consuming to question the Watchtower teachings. They keep you so busy with all the meetings most people don't have the time and that is part of their plan. The mushroom principle.
Keep'em in the dark, feed'em on Bullsh!t and when they're, ripe tread on 'em
You are right when you say most of what we learned about the bible is good stuff. I am only worried about all those places where they go beyond what is written and I'm worried about all those man made rules.
Good heavens where does the bible list all the blood fractions which are allowed and which are not allowed? So where did that teaching come from? What does the bible say about those that teach another gospel?
That is only one tiny subject but should serve enough of a warning. Another major concern is the fact that they have replaced Jesus Christ, the only name by which you can be saved with the Governing body, ie. Themselves. Now to be saved you must perform works (sell Watchtower publications) and suck up to and serve the board of directors of the Watchtower multy billion dollar( your money not mine) publishing corporation.
Stick around YT I like making stimulating conversation with you.
You are an independent thinker, watch you rear. -
YoungerTom
Hi Folks, Sorry I took so long to post. Mommie Dark, your way to salvation seems very cold and friendless, surely there are enough scriptures in the Bible about love, helping each other, and companionship!!! So let's keep it happy.
Ozzipost, I can't see how your scriptures change anything, surely had the nation of Israel stayed faithful they would have been performing their priestly function towards the nations, as will spiritual Israel.
I would not argue that they perform this on the earth. But they are a special possesion, bought or ransomed from the Earth. Bye, YT. -
ozziepost
YT: OK, but how's the research going on the other points. i.e. items 1 to 5?
1. Gentile Times - did they definitely end in 1914?
2. Generation - do you agree with the latest teaching?
3. F&DS - a prophetic class or the qualities of an individual Christian?
4. 144,000 - a literal number?
5. Mediator - is he your mediator?Come on, you're doing well. Just a little more reading effort. It's fun, isn't it?
Cheers,
Ozzie"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos -
MacHislopp
Hello everyone,
To Older Tom,
I'm sorry to hear it but, like many others , I do not get bored reading
posts on this board.To proplog2:
"There are now many voices on the internet who have become skilled at refuting Watchtower reasoning. A JW doesn't have a chance anymore of entering a discussion without coming out looking stupid. The only JW's who try to say anything in these forums are those who stumble on them for the first time. "
A very nice way to say it.
To Farkel: I do like your statement!
Agape, J.C.MacHislopp