Disfellowshipping, again

by somebody 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  spectromize

  Frenchy,

  You asked:" What should be done about about serious wrongdoers ( thieves, drunkards, drug users and pushers, fornicators, child molesters ect.) in the congregation?

  Most of the serious wrongs you mentioned can be handled by the law of the land in various degrees of punishment from serious to more serious. Even fornication such as sleeping with someone under age, and depending on the country you live such as in some Arab lands, fornication is illegal with various degrees of punishment by the arm of the state.

  So the first step would be to let the law of the land handle it.

  I personally believe the society is wrong in their approach to the system of justice they have set up by the abuse of the disfellowshipping arrangement along with the by-products of shunning.

  The spirit should be to gain your brother or sister or child as was Christ's spirit with the fellowship he provided with the arrangement of the christian congregation.

  But you have to remember that doesn't mean to be dumb and naive as far as serious wrondoers are concerned due to the corrupting and dividing influence it could have on a group of people, first let the law of the land deal with them and second if the christian congregation has to deal with the odd problem, then great care should be made to establish the facts in cases of fornication or other, and great wisdom should be used in difficult case where many peoples lives are involved. If guilt is established and I'm talking very general here, I would give someone in the congregation 30 days off from the congregation and they would be welcomed back at the end of this period of time. All of this would be done without attaching a label to the person such as disfellowship, excommunicated or call it what you may. In this way you would make it easier on the individual to see his wrong way and come back without that label attached to him, to associate within the brotherhood and especially with his immediate family who could provide him with more support than anyone else in some cases to do the right thing before Jehovah God.

  It is also everyones responsibilty as Christ encourages us to choose our close associates in a manner and hope that they too will manifest the fruits of the spirit. All of this can be done discreetly without showing yourself a bigot.

  LOVE CONQUERS!
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  In many cases, those committing these types of offenses need help and support rather than shunning.

  Also, from my best recollection, alcoholics cannot be disfellowshipped. Alcoholism has been determined to be a disease, and the Society would take a lot of flak for throwing out someone with a medical condition. Besides, it seems to me that an awful lot of JW's like liquor more than just a little.

  Again, this goes back to what I've said in previous posts. Elders should have some sort of psychological training so that they could help some of these "sinners". Throwing people out does nothing to help them....rather it solidifies their feelings of inadequacy and their low self-esteem.

  Obviously, a person who is committing these types of acts should not be in a position of authority in the congregation, but shunning them or labelling them by reproof and then letting them deal with it on their own does NOTHING to help heal the person.

  It's a complicated issue, but it seems that the Society is first and foremost concerned with how they look to the "world". The individual's spiritual life and their problems are of little relevance to the WTBTS.

  I've also noticed that disfellowshipping is based very frequently on personalities and prestige. There was a pioneer sister in our congregation who was frequently drunk, involved in hit-and-run accidents, and openly lewd behavior toward the unbelieving husbands of many sisters. She was never disfellowshipped, nor even reproved, and she maintained her position as a pioneer. In fact, she was frequently used in assembly programs.

  Then there was the MS who was married to the daughter of an elder. He is still in prison for a murder he committed while trying to get money to support his cocaine habit. I never heard a word about his being disfellowshipped from the congregation, and to the best of my knowledge, he was not.
• 

  somebody

  I have so much to say in all this. I agree with many opinions here but I just don't have the time right now to sit by myself and type out my feelings. I have been keeping up though and I'll be responding. ( hopefully, tomorrow night) It's great to read everybodys view on a touchy, emotional, so true in life, subject.

  till tomorrow,
  somebody
• 

  Frenchy

  Okay, I know I’m slow in responding!
  Spec.

  I would give someone in the congregation 30 days off from the congregation and they would be welcomed back at the end of this period of time.

  …suppose they are persisting in their course?
  Red:

  Also, from my best recollection, alcoholics cannot be disfellowshipped.

  They cannot be DF’d as long as they don’t get drunk, but if they persist in getting drunk they can and are DF’d. Know of one personally.
  

  It's a complicated issue, but it seems that the Society is first and foremost concerned with how they look to the "world". The individual's spiritual life and their problems are of little relevance to the WTBTS.

  Lots of truth here. Appearance is everything.
  

  I've also noticed that disfellowshipping is based very frequently on personalities and prestige.

  Also true in many cases.
  

  Then there was the MS who was married to the daughter of an elder. He is still in prison for a murder he committed while trying to get money to support his cocaine habit. I never heard a word about his being disfellowshipped from the congregation, and to the best of my knowledge, he was not.

  Also know of similar situations…but what would you suggest be done with habitual wrongdoers?
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Frenchy,

  I think that the role of religion is to try to help people to become better people.

  Those who commit acts that are criminal are dealt with by secular courts.

  The process as it is right now just isn't working. It sounds wonderful to declare that the congregation is kept free of those who are morally corrupt through the process of disfellowshipping, but we all know that it just doesn't work out that way.

  Those who are good at lying can feign repentance, and those who have influence can have their indiscretions hushed up. Conversely, there are many who are disfellowshipped mainly because they made a mistake and didn't know how to grovel appropriately.

  What would be the horrible consequence to simply allowing nature to take its course, so to speak?
  Most people are aware of those who are not morally upright and would tend to avoid them on their own, without a congregation mandate. Likewise, most people can judge who has simply taken a wrong turn and who needs help.

  Those who do not want to play by the rules will most likely drift off on their own.

  Those who are in positions of authority should be removed from those positions if they are caught in reprehensible conduct.

  There are very few cases, in my experience, where disfellowshipping accomplished anything towards healing the person disfellowshipped. At the same time, it caused pain and suffering for innocent family members.

  The whole practice of shunning seems to have turned into nothing more than a PR slogan....Look at us...we don't tolerate wrongdoing in our midst like these false religions....look at us, we're spotless! Additionally, it's been used very frequently to get rid of potential rabble rousers.

  It's very effective. If someone is thinking too much and talking too much, what better way to maintain the status quo than to forbid everyone to talk to this person?

  Jesus spoke of forgiveness and counseled people to refrain from wrongdoing. I can't think of any scripture where he advocated a mass shunning of an individual.
• 

  Carmel

  Now your're not suggesting, Somebody, that Paul, our dearest of apostles, would teach anything other than the teachings of Jesus? What an idea!

  Carmel, who appreaciates the light that shineth in the darkness!
• 

  spectromize

  Frenchy,

  Can you please give me a specific example of persistent wrong doing, and in this way I'm better able to explain the 30 day off.
• 

  Frenchy

  Spec: I guess I was being vague. Here is a real life example of what I am talking about.
  You begin hearing rumors about a member of your congregation. As time goes on, you hear more and more of them. He is seen in dubious places and some are telling you that he is getting drunk in public. You talk to him and he denies it. More time and more reports from different people about his public drinking and now he is see with a woman not his wife. Confrontation and denial again. Now his wife come to you and reveals details that are difficult to dismiss. Confrontation and denial again. Now the other woman’s husband comes to you with an eyewitness account. Again, you confront but he denies. Time goes on and the congregation is disturbed over the matter because this guy identifies with the congregation, he is a member in good standing and is now obviously a drunk and a fornicator. More time and talks with the man and pleadings with him to determine what is wrong. He won’t open up but just denies everything.
  Finally there is a preponderance of evidence and three eye witnesses to this terrible conduct. He is seen at two in the morning in a parking lot, drunk and cavorting with this woman while his teenage daughter sits in the back seat. At last he doesn’t deny the incident.
  What do you do with such a man?

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  spectromize

  Frenchy,

  OK so here we are. The brother finally does not deny it, that is the supposed affair with the other woman.

  Solution #1

  One responsible person taking the lead should speak to him privately and ask him if he sees anything wrong with what he is doing. I mention only one person to talk for the simple fact that it's less intimadating for someone to talk and open up than having three or two.

  Depending on the answer you get from this individual and at this time we will assume that he answers he doesn't see anything wrong then the next step would be to ask him in all sincerity and truth if he has ever been treated for an emotional illness or clinical depression or a disease of the mind. Of course those are all personal questions and can hurt an individual so the wise course for a shepperd to shepperd his flock is to have gotten close to individuals in the group so that a shepperd is well acquainted with Jehovah's sheep and their strength and weaknesses.

  Now at this point let us assume that this brother says no to the questions and answers truthfully.

  The next step would be to help him see by giving him specific examples of the course he is on, to show him how very destructive it is and those closest to him.

  If he doesn't want any help and his mind is made up to see this woman then nothing is going to change it for the present. You have to remember that Jehovah God has given the moral laws and there are consequenses for breaking then just as there are for breaking the physical ones. When gravity hits you in between the two eyes only time tells whether the impact leaves you standing.

  The thirty days off would be suggested to this individual to take a break away from the cong. and the group and to take time to clear his head. They would not be labelled and no announcement would be made but the family and all those involved close to him would be talked to and notified.

  In a case like this individuals usually self destruct, I've seen it happen in one cong. that I was in, the brother who happenned to be an elder didn't want to let go of his affair. He lost his eldership, was disfellowshipped, lost huge amounts of money from his successful business due to the wife and mistress fighting for control, lost his whole family except for his wife who was willing to forgive him if he would let go of his affair and finally the stress got to much for him he died a short time later in his early fifties. All of this took place within a year. I went to the funeral and it was a real crying shame to lose such an intelligent gifted man.
• 

  Frenchy

  Spec: A couple of questions. First what do you mean by 30 days off? Off of what? Next, what if, after the 30 period he is still involved with this woman?

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-