by somebody 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
Path, yes, it was the smoking. It just really floored me at the time. He had been inactive for quite some time, and we had gone back to the Hall probably a total of ten times, along with the study. It was "quit or you'll be disfellowshipped".
It wasn't really the smoking, though, in my estimation....it was the fact that he was asking too many questions that they couldn't answer.
Hey Red,
Smoking is still called an "easy out" around here.
An obvious-to-the-world sin which can be proved.
A person can be drunken falling all over, but then that's just one person's opinion of a situation.
A cigarette in the mouth is obvious.
So much easier than messy theology.
waiting.
Edited by - waiting on 5 August 2000 22:52:13
Okay girls, I have a few minutes so I have a question for you. I'm not trying to set anyone up, I just curious as to how you see this. What should be done about serious wrongdoers (thieves, drunkards, drug users and pushers, fornicators, child molesters, etc.) in the congregation. We are going to assume that these individuals are not one time offenders but are actively practicing one or more of these activities. What do we do with them? Do we allow them to stay in the congregation or do we boot them out?
...Hello to all the new ones (and the regulars also! Notice I did not say the 'old ones'!)
Hey Frenchy,
Speaking from personal experiences only:
1. cigarette butt in the mouth is still an easy out. My 17 yr old son took a drag off a cigarette (another person's at a concert)and he was in a comm. meet. next week. My husband & I went with him. They really had to deal with me more than my son. They had to do something - like call a meeting because one of the "drunk" boys who was sitting next to my son was a ms.
4 boys sitting next to my son ranged in age from 22-30. All were falling on/over people, drinking at the concert, bragging, had their hands on women sitting around them, loud, etc. (3 close by people talked to me about it). Was reported to elders - no meetings. They said they were not drunk, just having a good time.
How do you determine drunk? Vomit? Car death?
How do you determine smoke? Cigarette in mouth.
2. Serious sins you brought up: Cases which break the law should be reported to the law, such as spousal abuse and child abuse, including molestation and rape.
Cases which do not break the law, but are serious sins: the person should be removed from the cong.
The above quoted article cites the Bible where it says to remove the man.
I agree with taking issue as to the severity of the removal. Does the Bible lay the groundwork for taking all but this man's immediate family from him? Even when his immediate family no longer lives with him - then they shun him also.
What is the "Christian greeting" spoken about?
What is meant by treating him as a Gentile and/or tax collector? Does that mean looking at him as if he didn't exist for the rest of his life?
Or does that mean to treat him as you would any other worldly person. Case in point: my daughter was df'd 5 yrs. ago. Last week went to local restaurant. Her best jw friend (was) works there and waited on my duaghter and her companion. Would not speak to her or make eye contact. My daughter would not push the situation. She placed her order and left a tip as big as the meal. Why? Because this sister is notorious at gossiping. My daughter even reported her to the cong., but since she's df'd, the elders said there was nothing they could do about the ongoing gossip against her.
My daughter didn't want to give this good sister anything further to gossip about. Rather like paying her off, don't you think?
I have lived closely with df'd persons for 25 yrs. It is a hard situation all the time, even for the person who just happens to be wife/mother.
I believe, finally, that one of the primary goals of df'ing is to keep the people inside from talking to the people on the outside.
I think the way df'ing is put into practice is quite like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Usually, so much more is thrown out than just the sin.
Good to hear from you.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 6 August 2000 7:30:8
Thats a good question Frenchy. No one likes the shunning, but there are usually few alternatives put forth by those who don't like it.
First of all this is only a problem if one sees the need for Organization. At some point most of us here have realized that Organizations need rules to set them apart, and they need to enforce them, then they need more rules to explain the rules they already have. It becomes a burdensome situation that collapses on itself.
The problems with disfellowshipping (ie what exactly is a disfellowshipping offence, what about something like smoking which is not specifically mentioned in the bible, what about drunkeness, greed and gluttony which are? ) is that it involves everything Christ did away with and appears to contradict what he demonstrated when he was on earth.
Many of these people who have these problems need help and encouragement and love as Christ demonstrated. Perhaps some professional help too. Child molesters should be in jail. People such as the man in 1 Corintians who was sleeping with his mother, are generally not welcome company anyway.
This appears to be somewhat of a contradiction in scripture. The clear actions and words of Jesus, verus what Paul writes regarding "quit mixing in company". Again this is another subject which I've got to take some more time to think about.
If you decide to cling to "organization" Frenchy, I think the best application is simply to offer help to such individuals, and if there is no response, simply removal from the membership roles is sufficient. Demonizing such ones and shunning them seems hardly loving. Leave the judging in the hands of Christ.
Path
cigarretes are hard to give up, damn hard!.DFing someone for smoking is only going to stress someone out even more, and make the habit worse....really!
Drug users, well, not all are bad people in actuality...and there are gradients of use.Some are really messed up and addicted, what do you do...kick them out, now thats Christian love for you! That'll help a real lot!
Alchoholics, i've known a fair few...its an addiction, a real lifetime problem.A friend of mine tried to commit suicide a few months ago while boozed out of his head, he's alcoholic!.He wouldn't last long in KH i feel.Another friend who is also alchoholic( i know few) hasn't drunk a drop since 91...but he's obessed in other ways now. Alchoholics have an obsessive personality, they go from one obsession to another...they give up booze, take up gambling and chain smoking etc.Yeah but kick them out, they're scum of the earth.The people that most need help, kick them out, yeah , now that really makes sense!.All i can say is there are many REAL CHRISTIAN organizations out there DOING something for people like this, they dont turn their backs.The friend i mentioned earlier wouldn't have given up booze if it hadn't been for the Salvation Army, who are actually doing practical things within society rather than talking about fire and brimstone and handing out trashy magazines!.
Frenchy,
What should be done about serious wrongdoers(thieves, drunkards, drug users and pushers, fornicators, child molestors etc.)in the congregation.
Seventy times seven-Jesus' instructions about forgiveness. What a concept.
Researchers say that more study into the physical benefits of forgiveness is needed. However, they do report psychological benefits, including "less stress, anxiety and depression."
A noble reason for being forgiving is expressed at Ephesians 4:32, which says: "Become kind to one another, tenderly
compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you." When it comes to forgiveness, as in other respects, we are urged to become imitators of God.-Ephesians 5:1
Refusing to forgive others when
there is a basis for mercy can adversely affect our own relatonship with God. Jehovah expects us to forgive one another. Then we can pray that he will forgive us.-Mat6:14;Mark11:25;1John4:11.
I noticed these words as I was about to set my coffee cup down on the back of a Watchtower this morning. You tell me if we should give them the boot. It must mean then, that we are better judges in these affairs then Jesus.
Seven
I noticed these words as I was about to set my coffee cup down on the back of a Watchtower this morning.
LOL
Thank you for your replies. I have my own notions of how this should be done but I'm also interested in what others feel about it as well. Anyone else?
Pelt them with stones?
Path
